Which way should the piano keyboard sound orient in the stereo image of a solo recordings?

[raistlin65]

I only took a few years of piano. Even so, I find it's more natural to me when listening to sonatas and other piano solo recordings if the stereo image is setup with the bass to the left and the treble to the right, as if I'm sitting in front of the keyboard.

This is kind of a trivial thing. But might be interesting to see the results of the poll.

Be interesting to also hear from you guys who have mixed piano recordings as to whether or not there's a recommended way to do it. Also curious if the orientation choice affects the mix in other ways.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I find most recordings that have good imaging of the piano to be as you describe. Low notes on left and high notes on the right. Perspective from the view of the pianist.

 

[restorer-john]

Rarely would a listener stand behind the pianist and hear what he/she hears. A piano surely is mostly oriented a right angles to the audience/listener and either closed or with the lid partially or fully open/propped reflecting at the audience?

So, a coherent reflected sound with room acoustics is the preference for me.

We've all heard stereo recordings with accentuated key placement such that you can almost "see" every key the artist hits.

 

[restorer-john]

Perspective from the view of the pianist.

I don't like those recordings- they just sound fake to me, especially being as you end up with an 8ft wide piano keyboard...

 

[Zensō]

Another data point: sampled piano instruments are almost always panned from the musician’s viewpoint (low left, high right).

 

[Blumlein 88]

I don't like those recordings- they just sound fake to me, especially being as you end up with an 8ft wide piano keyboard...

The ones I have in mind aren't quite the huge wide piano keyboard. They'll either be a pair supplemented with outriggers to add a cushion of room sound or will use a technique that isn't stark in how it images (like Mid-Side). The main pair will often be placed beside the open lid facing into the piano. I assume they reverse channels to keep the lows on the left, highs on the right.

Something like the Hyperion Knight recordings done by Wilson Audio.

 

[Chrispy]

Don't pay that much attention to that particular instrument/implementation, but doubt I've spent much time with recordings where its particular "position" via the recording choices makes much difference to me but not a big piano content guy myself....

 

[Robin L]

The best piano recordings I made involved using a "tail shot", spaced [20" approx] omnis a few feet away from the tail on the instrument, capsules of the small diaphragm omni condensers aimed into the harp from a variable angle, vertical distance varying depending on how brilliant one wants the sound. That bass left/treble right perspective only makes sense if one is seated at the instrument, it's a perspective no one in an audience would hear. And placing mikes left and right over the harp from the audience POV results in a suck-out of the instrument's middle voices, producing a tinny/boomy sound. From the audience POV, there's a lump of instrument sound in front of them but no breakdown left to right of the instrument's bass and treble registers. More like a mono cloud of sound inside a stereo space. Lots of stereo effects exaggerate left/right separation, particularly for instruments like the piano: the audience perspective for a piano is not 2 inches from the instrument's sounding board. Many Jazz recordings [and just about all Glenn Gould recordings] use that macro-perspective of the instrument. The Decca/London recordings use a tail-shot technique, listen for their lack of left/right perspective.

 

[restorer-john]

Wasn't there a period back in the day where supplementary PZMs were used on/inside pianos?

 

[restorer-john]

Many Jazz recordings [and just about all Glenn Gould recordings] use that macro-perspective of the instrument. The Decca/London recordings use a tail-shot technique, listen for their lack of left/right perspective.

Yes, I've noticed a huge number of both older and newer jazz recordings exagerate the L-R.

Interesting information on why the classical Decca/London recordings seem to have such a convincing piano placement and overall "size".

 

[Robin L]

Wasn't there a period back in the day where PZMs were used on pianos?

Those sucked, yes. But fortunately, that was little used, perspective-wise PZMs were a mess. I had a recording series at a fine little site, a Julia Morgan recital room in Berkeley, big enough for about 30 in the audience, with higher than average ceilings. Concord Jazz made a series of solo Jazz piano recordings there, multiple microphones 2" from the strings on the sounding board. I guess that pingy, "bright" sound was fine for Jazz, but those CDs [Concord made a ton] never sounded "real" to me. That site had two Yamaha Grand pianos, FWIW. I guess Concord used that close perspective in part to dodge audience noise.

 

[Robin L]

Had to look it up: the hall was Maybeck Recital hall. Here's an example of one of their recordings at Maybeck:

Here's an example of a Decca/London recording of piano:

In the Marian McPartland recording, the left/right bass/treble perspective is exact and extreme. The Vladimir Ashkenazy recording has the tenor voices overlapping with the top notes in the right hand, and the deep bass seems to come from everywhere.

 

[Neale]

This doesn't answer your question, but it's interesting to see Shure's recommendations regarding the options for micing a piano, and what each option will emphasize (refer page 24-25):

https://www.shure.com/damfiles/defa...lish.pdf-3df433145fca686a736beeb5da588efa.pdf

 

[Robin L]

This is a recording I engineered and edited, recorded at a Unitarian church in Orinda that Andre Watts favored for recording. This is a Yamaha grand, I recorded using the tail shot technique:

Here is a recording of Glenn Gould, not as tight a close-up of the instrument as the Maybeck recording, but full of what Gould called "tactile proximity" Also possibly the prettiest thing he ever did.:

 

[Robin L]

This doesn't answer your question, but it's interesting to see Shure's recommendations regarding the options for micing a piano, and what each option will emphasize (refer page 24-25):

https://www.shure.com/damfiles/defa...lish.pdf-3df433145fca686a736beeb5da588efa.pdf

Just remember: "Live Sound" = maximum gain before feedback. Different rules apply for P.A. than for recording.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Had to look it up: the hall was Maybeck Recital hall. Here's an example of one of their recordings at Maybeck:

Here's an example of a Decca/London recording of piano:

In the Marian McPartland recording, the left/right bass/treble perspective is exact and extreme. The Vladimir Ashkenazy recording has the tenor voices overlapping with the top notes in the right hand, and the deep bass seems to come from everywhere.

Oh yeah, the first one you have there is not what I had in mind as a good recording. Cartoonish.

The 2nd one is pretty nice, if a bit unnaturally bright from an audience perspective. It too has a little right hand bias to the higher notes as I hear it. I have that recording. When I was selling off my LP's going all digital, someone traded it to me for an LP they wanted.

 

[Blumlein 88]

This is a recording I engineered and edited, recorded at a Unitarian church in Orinda that Andre Watts favored for recording. This is a Yamaha grand, I recorded using the tail shot technique:

Here is a recording of Glenn Gould, not as tight a close-up of the instrument as the Maybeck recording, but full of what Gould called "tactile proximity" Also possibly the prettiest thing he ever did.:

Oh very nice result on the Alexis Smith.

 

[Frank Dernie]

If you are trying to get a recording similar to a concert the sound is big and the image diffuse - it is a huge source compared to most other instruments and voices.
A big central image with no particular location for the frequencies is most accurate.
If anything the high notes are slightly towards the left since their strings are shorter so nearer the keyboard.
I don't think it is very natural for a recording to be made to sound like it does from the location of the performer rather than the audience.

 

[Robin L]

Here's a favorite Glenn Gould recording, the perspective is close but the imaging is more like a tail shot. More importantly, this is probably Glenn Gould's best performance of anything by Beethoven:

This starts with the kind of microphone perspective one would expect from a bootleg recording, sans audience noise. Afterwards, things tighten up a little. My nomination for greatest piano recording of all time, albeit not on account of engineering excellence.

 

[Robin L]

Someone asked [and then deleted] "what recording of piano would be best as regards the pianist's legs?" It would be this, which is also an excellent performance of Rachmaninov's Third Piano Concerto: