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Which way is up? (Which way does a loudspeaker driver move?)

KSTR

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I would beg to differ. A polarity flip can be readily identified in a ABX in a split second with many recordings when they contain kick-drums and/or thick bass-lines and when these signals are asymmetric around the zero line, which they often are. We don't need a study for that as it is one of the simplest test you can set up for ABX and everyone can create their own evidence. We've had that topic before, no need to go deeper here....
 
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René - Acculution.com

René - Acculution.com

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I would beg to differ. A polarity flip can be readily identified in a ABX in a split second with many recordings when they contain kick-drums and/or thick bass-lines and when these signals are asymmetric around the zero line, which they often are. We don't need a study for that as it is one of the simplest test you can set up for ABX and everyone can create their own evidence. We've had that topic before, no need to go deeper here....
I have seen people do polarity ABX tests with music, and get perfect scores. But try as may, I simply cannot latch on to what it is they are hearing... I have talked to YouTuber Sharur (https://www.youtube.com/@Sharur1/videos.) about this, and he can easily tell the difference. Perhaps I need some more track, or perhaps our ears just don't have the same nonlinear properties. It is one of those topics where I just watch from the periphery and respect whatever people say about it...
 

KSTR

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@René - Acculution.com,
I think it is reasonable to assume that our hearing mechanism can be differing enough to make some effects hard to spot for some... but then again, training plays a major role here as well. Once you know what to expect it is much easier to listen for it and also to select proper tracks to begin with.

I've once uploaded a song snippet here (but can't locate it right now) which gives me 100% hit rate even when not in the best mood or condition to do critical listening, and I also have an analytical test signal that exposes phase sensitivity very well: Take a sine at about 100Hz and add in a slightly detuned 2nd harmonic, at 200.5Hz. If we were phase-deaf (like a magnitude-only FFT analyser) we'd hear the detuned character but with a constant timbre. It turns out we hear a timbre shift cycling through "lean" and "fat" sections, repeating every 2 seconds which exactly matches the waveform display that we see on the scope.
 
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René - Acculution.com

René - Acculution.com

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@René - Acculution.com,
I think it is reasonable to assume that our hearing mechanism can be differing enough to make some effects hard to spot for some... but then again, training plays a major role here as well. Once you know what to expect it is much easier to listen for it and also to select proper tracks to begin with.

I've once uploaded a song snippet here (but can't locate it right now) which gives me 100% hit rate even when not in the best mood or condition to do critical listening, and I also have an analytical test signal that exposes phase sensitivity very well: Take a sine at about 100Hz and add in a slightly detuned 2nd harmonic, at 200.5Hz. If we were phase-deaf (like a magnitude-only FFT analyser) we'd hear the detuned character but with a constant timbre. It turns out we hear a timbre shift cycling through "lean" and "fat" sections, repeating every 2 seconds which exactly matches the waveform display that we see on the scope.
I appreciate what you sent me and will give it a good listen. Also, this has now been turned into an article with two other misconceptions. Polarity vs 180 degree phase shift, is it the same thing? Is phase just a time delay? Probably available in audioXpress May issue.
 
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René - Acculution.com

René - Acculution.com

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Finally, I have a music track where I can hear a polarity inversion. I had to listen many many(!) times, but then I found a difference, and could get 16/16 in first ABX try. Thank you Klaus @KSTR, appreciate it. My daily life is so filled with math and physics, so it is really nice when people can help with the more subjective aspects.
 

KSTR

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Nice to hear... and this also demonstrates that while the difference is detectable with some styles of music, depending on some wave-form properties, it is absolutely no deal breaker in practice.

But it offers an explanation why some gear (DACs, amps) may actually sound different than other gear with close to identical specs for no other reason than inverted polarity, and I think we already had such cases. Hell, even some top-class measurement mics are inverting, older Microcech Gefell for example, which caused a lot of headaches...
 
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René - Acculution.com

René - Acculution.com

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Nice to hear... and this also demonstrates that while the difference is detectable with some styles of music, depending on some wave-form properties, it is absolutely no deal breaker in practice.

But it offers an explanation why some gear (DACs, amps) may actually sound different than other gear with close to identical specs for no other reason than inverted polarity, and I think we already had such cases. Hell, even some top-class measurement mics are inverting, older Microcech Gefell for example, which caused a lot of headaches...
When I worked with hearing aids we were sometimes chasing a wrong sign in the measurements vs simulations, and that was sometimes the mic or its preamp. And yes, very subtle, and I might never have caught on to it had you not pushed me ;)
 

Tim Link

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I did an experiment once where I measured a speaker driver with the microphone so close that the driver would tap the mic. when it was at full excursion. This caused a sharp little tick in the waveform when the strike occurred. I wanted to see at what point in the waveform did the driver reach peak excursion. I figured the pressure would be highest when the driver was moving outward the fastest, and then return to normal when the driver reached full excursion and was essentially stopped. This proved to be the case, with the strike happening at the crossover, zero pressure point of the wave as it was coming down from the peak, indicating that peak pressure occurred on the outside surface of the driver as it was moving outward the fastest. If I went into a small enough space to create room gain, then the tick occurred at peak pressure, as expected, meaning peak pressure corresponded with the maximum excursion of the driver.

This brings up the question of the driver motion following the signal wave, which was created by a microphone responding to air pressure. So the air pressure created by the driver is not in phase with the air pressure recorded. It's 90 degrees off, so even if you flip the polarity - it's 90 degrees off? Unless maybe a ribbon mic. was used?
 
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René - Acculution.com

René - Acculution.com

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I did an experiment once where I measured a speaker driver with the microphone so close that the driver would tap the mic. when it was at full excursion. This caused a sharp little tick in the waveform when the strike occurred. I wanted to see at what point in the waveform did the driver reach peak excursion. I figured the pressure would be highest when the driver was moving outward the fastest, and then return to normal when the driver reached full excursion and was essentially stopped. This proved to be the case, with the strike happening at the crossover, zero pressure point of the wave as it was coming down from the peak, indicating that peak pressure occurred on the outside surface of the driver as it was moving outward the fastest. If I went into a small enough space to create room gain, then the tick occurred at peak pressure, as expected, meaning peak pressure corresponded with the maximum excursion of the driver.

This brings up the question of the driver motion following the signal wave, which was created by a microphone responding to air pressure. So the air pressure created by the driver is not in phase with the air pressure recorded. It's 90 degrees off, so even if you flip the polarity - it's 90 degrees off? Unless maybe a ribbon mic. was used?
So, what I describe here assumes steady-state condition: Put on a sinusoidal voltage signal, and watch the displacement phase versus the pressure phase (at some distance). When you appy a sharp tick, I am assuming some sort of impulse(?), and then phase is not defined, as there transient and steady-state behavior make up the total response. But you can calculate which way it will move, and also knowing that it is a minimum-phase system will point towards which way it will move. I go into these details in my video on Loudspeaker phase.

The overall point is that "For the elevator pitch, assuming the driver is more or less a flat piston, playing steady-state into a mass-like impedance, the positive pressure will follow the negative displacement (positive acceleration)"
 

Tim Link

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So, what I describe here assumes steady-state condition: Put on a sinusoidal voltage signal, and watch the displacement phase versus the pressure phase (at some distance). When you appy a sharp tick, I am assuming some sort of impulse(?), and then phase is not defined, as there transient and steady-state behavior make up the total response. But you can calculate which way it will move, and also knowing that it is a minimum-phase system will point towards which way it will move. I go into these details in my video on Loudspeaker phase.

The overall point is that "For the elevator pitch, assuming the driver is more or less a flat piston, playing steady-state into a mass-like impedance, the positive pressure will follow the negative displacement (positive acceleration)"
I had a steady state condition with a 60Hz sinusoidal voltage signal sent to a 5" woofer. The sharp little tick picked up by the microphone is just from the dust cap barely touching the microphone at the tip when the speaker is at maximum excursion. So you see a very clean 100Hz sine wave being recorded with a tiny little blip at the zero crossing point of the measured 100Hz (edit: 60Hz) wave, where the pressure is coming down from the peak. This is what I expected to see based on my assumption that pressure would be highest at maximum cone speed, which happens when the driver is at zero excursion. This was with a bookshelf speaker on a stand a couple feet above the floor and a couple feet from the wall.

You say "at some distance." I wanted to know what was happening right at the cone's surface. If I start moving away the phase will obviously change with distance. The reason I did this experiment was in response to this article: https://sound-au.com/doppler.htm I thought that his assumptions on what the modulated wave forms should look like might be wrong. He talked with me about it a little but in the end he just stopped responding. Apparently it's just over my head. There's something wrong with my experiment and it's not worth explaining to me what it is.

You are pointing out that the first principles approach says pressure will be greatest, in a free field situation at maximum outward acceleration, which is when the cone is at maximum inward displacement. In practicality, we usually have a floor nearby and perhaps a wall so it's always good to measure to see what's really happening. I noticed that my tick was just slightly off from the zero crossing point and I figured that had something to do with complications in the room.

If "some distance" means lets say 6" from a 5" cone, then the phase of a 60Hz wave won't change too much. So how can we test that the phase has changed by almost 90 degrees for a 60Hz wave over just 6"? If I understand you correctly that's what you seem to be suggesting. We might need a laser to track the cone motion in real time while we measure the pressure at various distances, time aligning the signals so we can see what the pressure is at various distances compared to the cone position.
 
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sonitus mirus

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Good stuff! This phenomenon can be analogously compared to the behavior of a thin, elastomeric balloon that exhibits expansion in response to a decrease in ambient air pressure and contraction when exposed to an increase in external pressure. In the isolated context of the balloon, the expansion can be misinterpreted as generating a positive pressure within the environment, akin to the outward movement of a speaker driver.
 
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René - Acculution.com

René - Acculution.com

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I had a steady state condition with a 60Hz sinusoidal voltage signal sent to a 5" woofer. The sharp little tick picked up by the microphone is just from the dust cap barely touching the microphone at the tip when the speaker is at maximum excursion. So you see a very clean 100Hz sine wave being recorded with a tiny little blip at the zero crossing point of the measured 100Hz wave, where the pressure is coming down from the peak. This is what I expected to see based on my assumption that pressure would be highest at maximum cone speed, which happens when the driver is at zero excursion. This was with a bookshelf speaker on a stand a couple feet above the floor and a couple feet from the wall.

You say "at some distance." I wanted to know what was happening right at the cone's surface. If I start moving away the phase will obviously change with distance. The reason I did this experiment was in response to this article: https://sound-au.com/doppler.htm I thought that his assumptions on what the modulated wave forms should look like might be wrong. He talked with me about it a little but in the end he just stopped responding. Apparently it's just over my head. There's something wrong with my experiment and it's not worth explaining to me what it is.

You are pointing out that the first principles approach says pressure will be greatest, in a free field situation at maximum outward acceleration, which is when the cone is at maximum inward displacement. In practicality, we usually have a floor nearby and perhaps a wall so it's always good to measure to see what's really happening. I noticed that my tick was just slightly off from the zero crossing point and I figured that had something to do with complications in the room.

If "some distance" means lets say 6" from a 5" cone, then the phase of a 60Hz wave won't change too much. So how can we test that the phase has changed by almost 90 degrees for a 60Hz wave over just 6"? If I understand you correctly that's what you seem to be suggesting. We might need a laser to track the cone motion in real time while we measure the pressure at various distances, time aligning the signals so we can see what the pressure is at various distances compared to the cone position.
Ah, okay, so tick is reference in some sense. Well, what you observe seems to go against what I argue, and I don't know why. As I read it you have the highest (positive) pressure when the cone has gone back to its rest position (highest velocity). Hmmm....
 
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René - Acculution.com

René - Acculution.com

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Good stuff! This phenomenon can be analogously compared to the behavior of a thin, elastomeric balloon that exhibits expansion in response to a decrease in ambient air pressure and contraction when exposed to an increase in external pressure. In the isolated context of the balloon, the expansion can be misinterpreted as generating a positive pressure within the environment, akin to the outward movement of a speaker driver.
Perhaps there is some analogy there. I seem to remember a Veritasium video dealing with balloon behavior, but I don't have it at hand. I think it makes sense to think from an 'information velocity' for the acoustics here. As the cone reaches its maximum positive displacement and comes to a hold, particles right at its surface will know immediately that it has stopped and they do too, while particles in the bulk are still moving away as the information that it has stopped has not reached them yet, and so you have rarefaction.
 

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Ah, okay, so tick is reference in some sense. Well, what you observe seems to go against what I argue, and I don't know why. As I read it you have the highest (positive) pressure when the cone has gone back to its rest position (highest velocity). Hmmm....
Right, the tick was a reference for the position of the cone. This would suggest that the playback signal reaching our ears is 90 degrees phase shifted from electrical input signal. The problem is, I don't necessarily see that when I generate multi tone pulses and then play them back through a speaker and record them nearfield. Often the wave form of the recorded output looks practically identical to the synthetically generated input, except for some ringing at the end of the pulse. I don't see that 90 degree phase shift So I will confess that I'm confused by all this. I think I'll try recording some multi-tone bursts again to verify that I'm not seeing a 90 degree phase shift. This should show up as an altered wave form if multiple tones are involved, right? Not just a time delay.

It had occurred to me that perhaps electrical issues were also shifting the phase 90 degrees, perhaps correcting the problem, but somebody else had a laser and tested to see if the cone moved in sync. with the electrical signal and he said his woofer did - very close to perfect tracking.
 
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René - Acculution.com

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Right, the tick was a reference for the position of the cone. This would suggest that the playback signal reaching our ears is 90 degrees phase shifted from electrical input signal. The problem is, I don't necessarily see that when I generate multi tone pulses and then play them back through a speaker and record them nearfield. Often the wave form of the recorded output looks practically identical to the synthetically generated input. I don't see that 90 degree phase shift So I will confess that I'm confused by all this. I think I'll try recording some multi-tone bursts again to verify that I'm not seeing a 90 degree phase shift. This should show up as an altered wave form if multiple tones are involved, right? Not just a time delay.

It had occurred to me that perhaps electrical issues were also shifting the phase 90 degrees, perhaps correcting the problem, but somebody else had a laser and tested to see if the cone moved in sync. with the electrical signal and he said his woofer did - very close to perfect tracking.
The electrical part should be kept out for now. As I read it you are only looking at the acoustical output with tick giving you the mechanical behavior. Hence any potential delays in your measurement change also don't matter, since the sound recorded is in-sync with the tick sound. Which is good. But there is 90 degrees missing somewhere.
 

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The electrical part should be kept out for now. As I read it you are only looking at the acoustical output with tick giving you the mechanical behavior. Hence any potential delays in your measurement change also don't matter, since the sound recorded is in-sync with the tick sound. Which is good. But there is 90 degrees missing somewhere.
I'm excited to be talking with somebody about this again, and appreciate your thoughts and knowledge on the topic. Thanks for starting the thread! One thing that came up in some discussions I had a few years ago was the notion that pressure is highest when speed is lowest. We determined that this idea applied to the air as the wave form propagated and not to the piston generating the air motion. You are referencing an equation that does refer to the piston's motion. I need to study that math to grasp it better and make sure I understand how and when to apply it.

I see we have an e^(-ikR). I have no idea if that's a positive or negative number, or an imaginary number. The math is definitely over my head.
 
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René - Acculution.com

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I'm excited to be talking with somebody about this again, and appreciate your thoughts and knowledge on the topic. And thanks to the OP for starting the thread! One thing that came up in some discussions I had a few years ago was the notion that pressure is highest when speed is lowest. We determined that this idea applied to the air as the wave form propagated and not to the piston generating the air motion. You are referencing an equation that does refer to the piston's motion. I need to study that math to grasp it better and make sure I understand how and when to apply it.
Yes, so this can be a little complicated, as different situations will have different characteristics. I will try and put together a post that details this.
 
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So here we go; pressure/velocity/... phase vs pressure/velocity gradient...

I think this is what confuses people, and I mention this in my video too. Signals and waves are not the same. But they are often conflated into one thing by both students and engineers.

(Steady-state conditions are assumed throughout, so all field variables are complex.)

Signal view
A tube is excited at one end by a piston. Starting out, waves are propagating only down the tube, with no reflections are present. The tube is infinitely long (abstraction). The acoustic impedance Za is equal to rho*c/S. This quantity is real. Since acoustic impedance is pressure divided by (volume) velocity, the present impedance is real. Pressure and velocity are thus in-phase in this situation. (If they were not, they would have different phases, and thus their division would not be real). If we plot this situation right as the piston has moved outwards to cross the rest position, we get the following picture (and the piston is shifted to the right to better see the pressure):
1686927473542.png

Red is positive pressure, blue is negative pressure. The piston is green and we are showing the DISPLACEMENT. We see that at the piston the displacement is zero, and that the pressure is positive to its highest amplitude. As velocity is 90 degrees out of phase with displacement, this all makes sense. If we show the piston VELOCITY, it should be at its highest positive value when the pressure is at the highest positive, and zero velocity should follow zero pressure. Let us check, and make the piston another color to indicate that it is now piston VELOCITY shown via its position:
1686928161645.png

The piston plotted has zero velocity in this instant (be careful; its placement at the rest position now indicates that VELOCITY is zero), and the pressure is also zero. So the pressure and the velocity peak at the same TIME, and we are looking at a single point in SPACE. That pressure and that velocity we evaluate at the piston position, or any other point in the tube, constitute SIGNALS.

Different phase relationships are found for different situations. Instead of the infinitely long tube, we can look at a closed tube. We now get standing waves. In that situation, we will find that the pressure at velocity (signals) are 90 degrees out of phase with each other; they are in so-called quadrature. In that situation, the pressure will be zero when the velocity is at its highest and at its lowest. Or as we show below, the pressure will be zero, when the displacement is zero:
1686928769336.png


Now, the piston in a baffle is yet another situation. In that case, the piston sees a mass-like impedance, and the analysis shows that acceleration will follow pressure, or negative displacement goes with positive pressure. Acoustic radiation is more than just a mass, but this is for the elevator pitch.


Wave view
So here is where it can go wrong. Looking at plots of waves and not being aware that this is not signals. The waves are plotted in space and changes with time, so you can animate it, but a signal varies in time only, and can only be animate as a phasor rotating.

A static plot of pressure and velocity can be misleading, as you are now typically looking at the real part only of complex values. First the propagation example.
1686937978501.png

Pressure is blue, (particle) velocity is green, the numerical values are not important, and to the left is the piston, to the right is the rest of the tube. The peaks align. Which seemingly makes. We said that for propagation pressure and velocity are in phase. But there is something else lurking, and that is that there some governing equations that have to hold. On is sometimes called Euler's equation, although that means different equations to different people.
1686938213030.png

Here we assumed steady-state conditions, so the velocity components and the pressure are complex values phasors. So at first glance there seems to be something wrong with the figure above. When the pressure peaks, it has a zero spatial derivative. But we need to remember that there is an "i" in the equation, which shift the phase on one side 90 degrees compared to the other side. And so looking at the plot of the real part only and deducing something from there is very tricky in general. Also, it is only when you animate it that you see the wave propagation.

Prop.gif


Similarly, it is tricky just to look at the standing wave situation with the real parts plotted and understanding the field in its entirety:
1686938508036.png

The pressure varies down the tube, but the velocity is seemingly zero everywhere? Well, we need to remember the complex-ness of the fields, and that static images can be misleading. So we animate:
Stand.gif

We see that in fact the velocity is not zero, we were just looking at a point in time, where it was. Also, the fact the peaks are a quarter period apart does not always translate to signals being in quadrature(!). If we animate pressure, velocity, acceleration, and displacement, we this:
StandMix.gif

Displacement, velocity, and acceleration all peak at the same places in SPACE for this standing wave situation, but not at the same TIME. Mixing up what is coming from the signal and what is coming from the wave is something I see all the time.

The issues mainly stem from not understanding complex numbers:
- Complex number (magnitude, phase, real part, imaginary part) are a prerequisite for understanding signal processing (transfer functions, filters, crossovers)
- Signal processing is a prerequisite for understanding field and physics in general (wave propagation, transductance principles, speaker drivers)

This is also why there are so many posts on group delay and phase delay that mix up these terms. They start from some fixed plot of a sinusoidal signal and then from there, delays are deduced from phase. That is the wrong way to go about it.

A more hidden issue, but very interesting, is that in many situations acoustical engineering students are taught about the plane wave tube, and how you can calculate the frequency by looking at the difference between two pressure peaks in the tube. I think the majority of people will think this is universally true. But it is not. There are so-called tube modes. Each have a characteristic frequency. If the mode is excited, it cannot propagate but dies out exponentially near the excitation source. Above it, it can propagate. But only part on the frequency of the excitation is linked to the propagation in the axial direction of the die. The rest, goes to the mode pattern in the cross-sectional direction. So slightly above the mode's cut-on frequency where it can propagate, there is very little axial frequency. So, there is a very long axial wavelength, any length you want, pretty much. So you would with two microphones measure a very long way between two pressure peak, calculate a very low frequency, and think that this is the applied signal frequency. But it is not. So certain things that are engrained in engineers are only correct in certain situations. For this case, the link between frequency and pressure peaks only works for plane waves, as the plane wave can always propagate.

In conclusion, do not learn acoustics purely by experimentation and intuition. You cannot see the piston moving as it moves to fast, and you can certainly not see the air particles move. So you have to build your intuition via the mathematics and simulations, and not via analogy where you experience something else and then link it to your situation.

Pressure and velocity are linked the acoustic impedance. These are all complex, and can have any relation, not just the extremes of mass, pure real resistance, or inductance. And the waves that occur can be a mix of standing and propagating ones. You have to look at each situation individually. As the variables are complex, it will not suffice to only look at real parts. And animate your variables for added insight.
 
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