Which speakers/setup for ride cymbals

[ryanosaur]

The Phil3s are awesome. Dennis' masterpiece, IMO. (I've only heard a pair once, but that was sufficient to be impressed.) I was going to order a pair for our HT room, procrastinated too much, and then they went out of production. MY loss.

I ordered right before Dennis got sick. I knew they were going through Salk's shop, and Jim and I had talked a lot about what I wanted. Long story short, it almost didn't happen. It took some back and forth with Jim before we came to an agreement that kept the price I was originally going to pay Dennis largely unchanged. I was on pins and needles for a while though, even talking to Rick Craig about one of his kit designs if Jim were to pull the plug.

I didn't get the last pair of Phil3s ever built, but close to it... way too close.

Not a day goes by where I am not grateful for these being in my life and for Dennis' and Jim's efforts. My bed layer is those up front with 5 BMR Monitors rounding out 7.1 setup.
The rig is multipurpose but Music first, built mostly because I wanted to get into multi channel recordings.

 

[JustCoolin‘]

Lovano's From The Soul is one of those timeless modern classics for me. Joe can easily stand among some of the greats like Joe Henderson and Dexter Gordon efforts on Blue Note. There's a lot of good stuff on that album. Portrait of Jennie is a great ballad. His own compositions in Modern Man and Fort Worth along with his rendition of Central Park West... So many stand out performances there.

Oh yes. It’s a fantastic album. I am a huge, huge, huge Coltrane fan, but Lovano’a version of Central Park West almost pips the original. Almost!

 

[Sig.Rossi]

I'm also very happy to meet so many folks like you here.

I didn't think of any particular recording. It's a general problem I have with jazz recordings. (That means Sonny Rollins' "It could happen to you" on The sound of Sonny is particularly bad. Hahaha, just kidding. Check it out).

Played live, in real life, not on a live recording, the ride cymbals are so essential. At least with a small combo, they can fill the entire room and float above everything.

For me, the difference to recordings here is bigger than with any other instrument. Unfortunately, I could never hear such details as described here on recordings.

On Bill Evans' live recordings at the Village Vanguard, I can hear the brushes as if the drummer was sitting in the room next to me. But that just doesn't work for the ride cymbals, on any recording that I know of. But I also think that live recordings perform better here.

Do you think you can do this with good equipment? I also have a bit of a suspicion that the recordings are to blame, or that for some reason it's particularly difficult to convey the floating, ringing metallic sound well in a mix and through speakers. When I put my ear to the speakers, the sound is there. But it just doesn't spread out in space like all other parts of a recording can. Unfortunately, I don't have an EQ in my system yet. But I remember trying to solve the problem years ago with an EQ I had in my car. Not sure what the results were like.

 

[Avp1]

There are several things needed to properly reproduce high percussion like ride cymbals.
1. Speaker should not have resonance in tweeter up to at least 30kHz. Ribbon tweeters are like this. Some fabric domes will still work. Most metal diaphragm tweeters should be excluded. Speaker should be capable to produce very high sound pressure at treble - above 110dB.
2. Sound reproduction chain should work well above 20kHz, this excludes CD and DSD64. I would say that sampling rate of 192kHz or higher works best, as will do DSD256. In analogue world 45rpm LP may work with top shelf cartriges, tape at 15 or 30ips will be the most appropriate.
3. Record should be made with microphones capable to capture high sound pressure at high frequencies, usually small diaphragm microphones work best. Also only minimal compression should be applied, which is only found in 24 or higher bit records.

No equalization or other post processing will help, if the content is not there. So recommendations is: proper speakers and high-res music content at minimum.

 

[CapMan]

I didn't think of any particular recording. It's a general problem I have with jazz recordings. (That means Sonny Rollins' "It could happen to you" on The sound of Sonny is particularly bad. Hahaha, just kidding. Check it out).

I think it’s fair to say that a ride cymbal can produce a massive array of sounds depending on its construction, how it is played, with what, and on the part of its surface. The timbre, overtones, wash, sustain will also be varied and subtle. Go to a drum store and play a few up close to experiment. Record a ride cymbal on its own and I assume you’ll hear a lot of the subtle blend harmonics, overtone, sustain in the playback. Maybe you also hear that live if you are up close to the drummer. I have had that experience.

But in a recorded band situation with a full drum kit and the ensemble swinging hard, I imagine a lot of the more subtle aspects of the sound just gets swamped.

For me hearing the feel and groove in the ride is far more important in jazz than the subtle reproduction of nuances in timbre and sustain. Listen to the Mel Lewis track with Art Pepper above - his time and feel is impeccable - I could care less if he’s hitting a dustbin lid, because that isn’t what makes the band play and sound great - it’s is his feel. Just my point of view

 

[Sig.Rossi]

Yes, excellent recording and drumming. Thank you.

This one gets quite loud on the cymbals

 

[Mart68]

How drums are recorded has changed massively over the years as mixing desks got more and more channels. From using one mic for the drums to 16 or 20.

I think this is pretty much 100 percent a recording thing and nothing to do with the playback system.

 

[Sig.Rossi]

There are several things needed to properly reproduce high percussion like ride cymbals.
1. Speaker should not have resonance in tweeter up to at least 30kHz. Ribbon tweeters are like this. Some fabric domes will still work. Most metal diaphragm tweeters should be excluded. Speaker should be capable to produce very high sound pressure at treble - above 110dB.
2. Sound reproduction chain should work well above 20kHz, this excludes CD and DSD64. I would say that sampling rate of 192kHz or higher works best, as will do DSD256. In analogue world 45rpm LP may work with top shelf cartriges, tape at 15 or 30ips will be the most appropriate.
3. Record should be made with microphones capable to capture high sound pressure at high frequencies, usually small diaphragm microphones work best. Also only minimal compression should be applied, which is only found in 24 or higher bit records.

No equalization or other post processing will help, if the content is not there. So recommendations is: proper speakers and high-res music content at minimum.

Any suggestions for affordable speakers like that? What about horns?

Although as far as I understood the human ear isn't capable to process that.

 

[CapMan]

Any suggestions for affordable speakers like that? What about horns?

Although as far as I understood the human ear isn't capable to process that.

How many jazz albums past and present were mastered on speakers like that ?

I think there is a danger here of missing the beauty of the forest by worrying about the shape of each leaf !

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Fascinating thread, thanks to everyone suggesting music. Having heard bands in studios, I often feel commercial recordings suppress cymbal sound a lot. I think producers think consumers are just not ready for something more realistic.

 

[Avp1]

Emphasis on good quality.

I know my Raal tweets don't disappoint. Cymbals were one of my metrics and the Phil3s just sounded so much like I was in a small combo again, standing 4 feet from the drummer. The detail of a crisp attack, the sustain and sizzle, all of it!

To think I spent most of my early life with a Sax in my mouth and was such a student of music... and I ruined it for so many years listening on an old Onky-Blow HTIB. All the excitement I had from good recordings was sucked away. I spent around 10 years with that. Late 2018 into 2019 is when I got my new Rig set up and that excitement came rushing back. Hell, even bad recordings were amazing!

Two of my test tracks:

Joe Lovano - Evolution

Listen to Evolution on TIDAL

tidal.com

Featuring Dave Holland and Ed Blackwell, Petrucciani on keys.

Joe Lovano - New York Fascination

Listen to New York Fascination on TIDAL

tidal.com

Dave Holland and Elvin Jones.

I tried to listen both of these tracks. I do not use Tidal, but found them on Qobuz. There they only available at CD quality and thus suffer from limited frequency response and too much compression. They sound Ok, but nothing exceptional in terms of percussion reproduction.

 

[CapMan]

They sound Ok, but nothing exceptional in terms of percussion reproduction.

I think the OP was recommending them based on their musical excellence .. which is how I tend to choose my music also.

You’ll have to explain your comment on CD quality limiting the frequency response - makes no sense to me.

 

[Sined]

How drums are recorded has changed massively over the years as mixing desks got more and more channels. From using one mic for the drums to 16 or 20.

I think this is pretty much 100 percent a recording thing and nothing to do with the playback system.

Fully agree. Too bad they don't know what to do with all those microphones...

Approximately 35,000 titles in my music database. I think I have enough of my two hands to count the number of tracks where the drum is well recorded and sound real, with punch, as it does on the stage. Very often, (not to say most of the time), it looks like if the drums are tamed 5-10 dB lower than the average music level, like if it would be something that needs to be hidden.... For sure, drum is a difficult instrument to record because of its very large dynamics and wide frequency response, but there is absolutely no technical limitations to do it right. And nothing gives more punch to a good piece of music than good percussions.

 

[Avp1]

Fully agree. Too bad they don't know what to do with all those microphones...

Approximately 35,000 titles in my music database. I think I have enough of my two hands to count the number of tracks where the drum is well recorded and sound real, with punch, as it does on the stage. Very often, (not to say most of the time), it looks like if the drums are tamed 5-10 dB lower than the average music level, like if it would be something that needs to be hidden.... For sure, drum is a difficult instrument to record because of its very large dynamics and wide frequency response, but there is absolutely no technical limitations to do it right. And nothing gives more punch to a good piece of music than good percussions.

There is a technical limitation in reproduction. There are not many speakers capable to produce over 120dB of sound pressure. And even that is likely 10dB lower than real drum makes. Whoever does mixing and mastering, tune sound to gear what 99% of listeners use, not main studio monitors.

 

[CapMan]

Fascinating thread, thanks to everyone suggesting music. Having heard bands in studios, I often feel commercial recordings suppress cymbal sound a lot. I think producers think consumers are just not ready for something more realistic.

When I used to gig with my old band it was noticeable how much the venue changed what I heard with cymbals. Some rooms sucked the life out of them. Perhaps the same is true of different studios and the top end is susceptible to being attenuated ?

 

[Penelinfi]

Thanks for some of those tracks, they are good recordings. Certainly gives you that jazz club sound. It sounds fine on my speakers.

I can see how you might want a touch more ride cymbal. Such cymbals have content down to 1khz or maybe lower. A smooth midrange response should suit with no resonance - as that (resonance) will go off everytime the trumpets and sax play, hiding the cymbals. Perhaps low multi tone and less reflections or diffused reflections could work. After all, cymbals are flavoured noise. It's easy to smear them.

 

[DHzHolden]

I love the sound of ride cymbals in Jazz.

They are very present in live music.

But in recordings they always seem far too quiet. You can hear crash cymbals and an open hihat well, but you can only guess what the ride cymbals play.

Is there a reason for this? Are there specific speakers or setups that can get you closer to live sound?

If the ride cymbal is well-recorded, you will hear it on any reasonable system. I am currently listening to The Dave Brubeck Quartet's Take Five. The drums are in the left channel. The ride cymbal is well-defined. As has been suggested, the ride cymbal sounds good if the recording is good. I have a nice heavy 20" Paiste ride cymbal as my reference.

Good luck, and all best.

Dick