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Which speakers are the Classical Music Pros using?

Floyd Toole

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Hi Tuga, IMO there is not enough data to jump to that particular, possible, conclusion. More of the data actually supports the conclusion that stereo simply dulls the ability to discriminate, compared to mono. Look at the data spread in stereo, of all 3 speakers. Same spread. If there were error bars they would overlap so much that the only possible conclusion on the spatial ability of the 3 speakers would be ‘same-same, now give me better data’. We can’t actually say the Quad improved its sense of space at all, while the data is suggesting that the test is not an appropriate test for that attribute.
A good comment. I am otherwise engaged these days, looking in to the forum only occasionally. You are absolutely right in your last statement. One needs a different kind of test to get a definitive result. As I said on P. 177 :"In these results, spatial quality and sound quality ratings were obviously not completely independent – one followed the trends of the other. Is it possible that listeners cannot separate them even though, consciously, most were confident that they could (the author included)?" Other information indicates that spatial effects compare with timbre in overall assessments of sound quality, so the answer is probably "yes". Since directional and spatial effects are created in the recording process, and recording processes differ, playing recordings won't provide the answers. The problem would need to be broken down into small elements, beginning with "simple" soundstage imaging. With all phantom images compromised by acoustical crosstalk, and hard panned sounds reproduced by mono L & R loudspeakers even that could use more elucidation. I wish I were still at work, with comprehensive subjective/objective facilities, an expert staff and financing to look into it. But that has passed . . .
 

youngho

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Also how does a dipole deal with the ceiling reflections exactly?
The traditional argument in favor of dipoles is that the front and back signals are supposed to cancel out, resulting in a figure-of-8 radiation pattern. This means less sound energy radiated towards the sides, above, and below the plane of the dipole, hence less strength of sidewall, ceiling, and floor reflections. The problem is that this cancellation tends to occur in an irregular fashion across the frequency spectrum. In any case, see the these off-axis measurements for the Quad ESL-63 (taken from Toole's book) for the significantly reduced off-axis radiation:

Screen Shot 2021-10-03 at 6.32.09 PM.png
 
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tuga

tuga

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We can’t actually say the Quad improved its sense of space at all, while the data is suggesting that the test is not an appropriate test for that attribute.

Can you explain how the Quad didn’t improve the perceived spatial quality in stereo?

To agree with your second comment I would have to consider the listening methodology adequate, which I don’t for the reasons I mentioned earlier. (edit: looks like Floyd Toole beat me to it)
 
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tuga

tuga

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The traditional argument in favor of dipoles is that the front and back signals are supposed to cancel out, resulting in a figure-of-8 radiation pattern. This means less sound energy radiated towards the sides, above, and below the plane of the dipole, hence less strength of sidewall, ceiling, and floor reflections. The problem is that this cancellation tends to occur in an irregular fashion across the frequency spectrum. In any case, see the these off-axis measurements for the Quad ESL-63 (taken from Toole's book) for the significantly reduced off-axis radiation:

View attachment 156999

This horizontal FR families plot of the ensuing model (ESL-989) also shows the ripples above 2kHz but note that the 60º off-axis curve is many dB down in level compared to box monopoles:

quad989fig3.jpg

Quad ESL-989, lateral response family at 50", from back to front:
responses 90 degrees-5 degrees off-axis, reference response on mid-panel axis,
responses 5 degrees-90 degrees off-axis.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/quad-esl-989-electrostatic-loudspeaker-measurements

On the plus side, vertical families are a lot more even than those of non-coax 2- or 3-way boxes:

quad989fig5.jpg
 

Floyd Toole

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The speaker is positioned in the middle of the room, far from the side walls, and the axis is perpendicular to the front wall.
The 1985 stereo/mono tests under discussion used exactly the same locations for both tests, as I recall the left front speaker location was the mono candidate. The routine tests at Harman using the "shuffler" are set up as shown in several well circulated photos and as Tuga described. What is probably not known is that an occasion to evaluate a loudspeaker of distinctive directivity, such as a dipole, is an occasion to repeat the test in stereo, with speakers toed in and normally close to sidewalls. Nobody knows how sensitive our listeners are to matters of imaging and space, but the results have closely tracked the mono results.
 

youngho

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My question are:

Why should the spatial quality of a single speaker matter unless you only listen to a single speaker?
I think the parameters used to define spatial quality were laid out in the original paper, some for mono and additional ones for stereo only.
(What is spatial quality if not the interaction of the speaker's dispersion/directivity characteristics and the room boundaries? Can we perceive spatial quality in anechoic conditions?)
See above, plus I can think of a few other possibilities for a mono speaker--from what I understand, Toole finds that flat on-axis response tends to result in the speaker not calling attention to itself; diffraction effects (or the lack thereof, see the Revel Salon 2 and Studio 2 designs towards this end; also http://www.linkwitzlab.com/diffraction.htm) may play a role; and the so-called Gundry or BBC dip has been discussed in changing the impression of distance.
How can you conflate that a single speaker which rates highly in terms of spatial quality when listenened to in mono is objectively better than one which rates poorly when they rate similarly if listened (as intended) in stereo?
Listener preference testing is subjective. Even a term like "better" is not objective.

I don't know if you've read Toole's book or not, but I believe that his discussion is far more nuanced: However, in stereo listening, most of the differences disappeared. The two highly rated loudspeakers (AA and E) kept their high ratings, almost identically in fact, but the loudspeaker (BB) that had a low rating in mono became competitive in stereo...With respect to BB, did stereo add something that was missing in mono? Did stereo mask problems that were audible in mono? Did stereo reveal a capability that could not be heard in mono? These are key questions...But what about BB? It seems possible that the interchannel decorrelation generated by differences in stereo-miked and mixed sounds radiated from the left and right loudspeakers provided compensation for this loudspeaker in the stereo tests...According to the definitions of those phrases, “Loudspeakers AA and E gave listeners some impression of being enveloped by the ambient sound of the recording environment, with BB tending to separate them from the performance”...Figure 8.14 shows the spatial quality ratings for each of the music selections. They are all different. The two classical pieces, recorded in concert hall circumstances, were not able to conclusively rank the three loudspeakers according to listener preference. At best, gentle trends can be seen, not substantial differences. If BB is deficient in its ability to generate a sense of spaciousness, it does not show up in these judgments, perhaps because the contributions of the room reflections are swamped by the spatial information incorporated into the stereo recordings...The pop music selection put loudspeaker BB in a position of disfavor. In fact, the subjective ratings in this stereo test are remarkably similar to those seen in monophonic listening (Figure 8.12). Why is this? Of all the recordings, the pop recording was the only one to have significant amounts of hard-panned—that is, monophonic—sound emerging from the left and right loudspeakers. It is conceivable and logical that listeners reacted to the relative lack of spatial accompaniment for these sounds when they were auditioned through BB...Wide dispersion is of no value if the reflections cannot be heard"
A. Optimal positioning is one which will produce the flattest response at the listening spot (and the listening spot may not be the same for every speaker design). There are two optimal positions for each speaker design: one for the long wall and one for the short wall setup.
How is flattest response defined? Steady-state or gated? Measured at one position or spatially averaged? Using standard deviations between multiple positions or some statistical metric measuring the difference between maximum and minimum or between average and deviations from that in terms of frequency response, whether at one position, multiple ones (one for each ear position?), or spatially averaged? Using unsmoothed curves, or if not, what partial-octave smoothing? Or unsmoothed below the transition zone and 1/24-smoothed above? What is the optimal listening spot? What if the smoothest response is produced in a non-equilateral triangle setup? Or if the ideal listening spot requires a non-seated position? How about the presence of a console or desk for monitors intended for studio work? You already gave the example of Dali speakers, so what if the smoothest response is produced by severe toe-in so that the listening axis crosses in front of the so-called ideal listening spot resulting in the other 30 degree off-axis?

Sorry, I don't have the energy to respond much further. It seems like speakers like Dali would be supposed to have some sort of advantage in stereo listening in the MLL if they're evaluated in stereo without toe-in. I only saw three pictures of the MLL, so I cannot know when and how toe-in was used or not, but there's nothing about the shuffler mechanism that precludes use of toe-in for stereo listening. In fact, when I look at the blurry first picture, it seems to show two dark speakers set up in stereo with the nearer speaker angled toward the listener.

Also, the Quad ETC will not look like the RFZ without significant QRD of other mathematical diffusion on the front and rear walls, also probably at least 8-10’ between the speaker and the front wall, also between the listener and the rear wall, which would require diffusion, otherwise there would be still be sparse spikes.
 
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Newman

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This horizontal FR families plot of the ensuing model (ESL-989) also shows the ripples above 2kHz but note that the 60º off-axis curve is many dB down in level compared to box monopoles
OTOH check out the side wall bounce reflections from another dipole:
1633322284145.png


Looks like the issue is too complex for the conclusions being drawn.

cheers
 
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tuga

tuga

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OTOH check out the side wall bounce reflections from another dipole:
View attachment 157084

Looks like the issue is too complex for the conclusions being drawn.

cheers

That speaker was not used in Harman's testing. I'm sure it won't be difficult to find a bad example of a conventional monopole box.
@RayDunzl 's in-room measurements seem to indicate that his ML performs/interacts better than the LSR 308. He prefers it too if I'm not mistaken.
 
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tuga

tuga

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I think the parameters used to define spatial quality were laid out in the original paper, some for mono and additional ones for stereo only.

See above, plus I can think of a few other possibilities for a mono speaker--from what I understand, Toole finds that flat on-axis response tends to result in the speaker not calling attention to itself; diffraction effects (or the lack thereof, see the Revel Salon 2 and Studio 2 designs towards this end; also http://www.linkwitzlab.com/diffraction.htm) may play a role; and the so-called Gundry or BBC dip has been discussed in changing the impression of distance.

Sorry, my reply was not clear. I didn't mean the parameters used to perceive/describe spatial quality but how the effect is produced by the speaker (in a room, using its boundaries).
Do you expect any perceived spatial quality difference between a very wide directivity Vimberg Mino and a narrow directivity D&D 8c when listened outdoors or in an anechoic room (both speakers EQ'd for flat on-axis response and high-passed if needed to match bandwidth)?

320ViMinofig5.jpg

Vimberg Mino, lateral response family at 50" source


719DD8Cfig3.jpg

Dutch & Dutch 8C, lateral response family at 50 source
 
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tuga

tuga

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Listener preference testing is subjective. Even a term like "better" is not objective.

I don't know if you've read Toole's book or not, but I believe that his discussion is far more nuanced: However, in stereo listening, most of the differences disappeared. The two highly rated loudspeakers (AA and E) kept their high ratings, almost identically in fact, but the loudspeaker (BB) that had a low rating in mono became competitive in stereo...With respect to BB, did stereo add something that was missing in mono? Did stereo mask problems that were audible in mono? Did stereo reveal a capability that could not be heard in mono? These are key questions...But what about BB? It seems possible that the interchannel decorrelation generated by differences in stereo-miked and mixed sounds radiated from the left and right loudspeakers provided compensation for this loudspeaker in the stereo tests...According to the definitions of those phrases, “Loudspeakers AA and E gave listeners some impression of being enveloped by the ambient sound of the recording environment, with BB tending to separate them from the performance”...Figure 8.14 shows the spatial quality ratings for each of the music selections. They are all different. The two classical pieces, recorded in concert hall circumstances, were not able to conclusively rank the three loudspeakers according to listener preference. At best, gentle trends can be seen, not substantial differences. If BB is deficient in its ability to generate a sense of spaciousness, it does not show up in these judgments, perhaps because the contributions of the room reflections are swamped by the spatial information incorporated into the stereo recordings...The pop music selection put loudspeaker BB in a position of disfavor. In fact, the subjective ratings in this stereo test are remarkably similar to those seen in monophonic listening (Figure 8.12). Why is this? Of all the recordings, the pop recording was the only one to have significant amounts of hard-panned—that is, monophonic—sound emerging from the left and right loudspeakers. It is conceivable and logical that listeners reacted to the relative lack of spatial accompaniment for these sounds when they were auditioned through BB...Wide dispersion is of no value if the reflections cannot be heard"

It seems logical, in my view, that for the assessment of spatial quality alone no other variables should be at play (frequency response and bandwidth differences). If this prerequisite is not met then the conclusions are not valid, i.e. that mono listening is more or less descriminating of spatial differences or that a particular topology produces better spatial quality (because there are other variables at play - see Rega, Kef and Quad FR plots).
And as Floyd Toole mentioned earlier, "we did not play with filters or EQ – we were evaluating speakers as they were manufactured".

As for sound quality assessment, again you either remove the "room" variable or at least strive for proper positioning and toe-in (if the goal is to assess whether transduction-related issues are audible - was that the goal?).

And listening away from the sweet spot might be suitable for assessing the quality of off-axis response but I also find that it will introduce a variable that may lead to misleading conclusions (the narrowing directivity of a current-production Kef will sound very different off-axis from the Vimberg I mentioned earlier). It will favour wide and smooth directivity speakers and thus introduce bias.

From where I am standing it seems as though data interpretation and consequent steps in the research development were aimed at validating the importance or superiority of wide-directivity.
Perhaps wide-directivity is the best choice for pop music?
 
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tuga

tuga

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How is flattest response defined? Steady-state or gated? Measured at one position or spatially averaged? Using standard deviations between multiple positions or some statistical metric measuring the difference between maximum and minimum or between average and deviations from that in terms of frequency response, whether at one position, multiple ones (one for each ear position?), or spatially averaged? Using unsmoothed curves, or if not, what partial-octave smoothing? Or unsmoothed below the transition zone and 1/24-smoothed above? What is the optimal listening spot? What if the smoothest response is produced in a non-equilateral triangle setup? Or if the ideal listening spot requires a non-seated position? How about the presence of a console or desk for monitors intended for studio work? You already gave the example of Dali speakers, so what if the smoothest response is produced by severe toe-in so that the listening axis crosses in front of the so-called ideal listening spot resulting in the other 30 degree off-axis?

What's the general consensus in regard to on-axis frequency response measured in anechoic conditions at one metre?
Do the best-performing (from a technical perspective) speakers take the non-seated position or the presence of a console or desk into account?

The Dali is flat at 30º, it only matters if the axis is in front or behing the listener because of the way it will interact with the room boundaries (in any case the manufacturer specifies a 90º angle between axis and front wall). Not that I support Dali's approach, but it's one example.

But I think that you may be missing the point which is that one cannot assess one parameter unless no other variables are introduced.
Unless one uses one same speaker such as the B&O which allows the user to widen or narrow directivity then one is comparing apples to oranges...
 
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tuga

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Sorry, I don't have the energy to respond much further. It seems like speakers like Dali would be supposed to have some sort of advantage in stereo listening in the MLL if they're evaluated in stereo without toe-in. I only saw three pictures of the MLL, so I cannot know when and how toe-in was used or not, but there's nothing about the shuffler mechanism that precludes use of toe-in for stereo listening. In fact, when I look at the blurry first picture, it seems to show two dark speakers set up in stereo with the nearer speaker angled toward the listener.

Perhaps Floyd Toole could confirm if toe-in is/was ever used in the shufflers. I have seen many photos and not a single one showed any toe-in. Also if you have an audience of listeners (and not just a single listener in the sweet-spot) it doesn't make sense (or matter) whether you toe-in or not, although it should.
And what about speakers which should be placed in corners or back against the front wall? The shuffler doesn't respect those requirements either.

Also, the Quad ETC will not look like the RFZ without significant QRD of other mathematical diffusion on the front and rear walls, also probably at least 8-10’ between the speaker and the front wall, also between the listener and the rear wall, which would require diffusion, otherwise there would be still be sparse spikes.

The RFZ graph was used for illustrative purposes only. Dipoles should sit away from the front wall or said wall should be treated (was this addressed in the Harman tests?).
 

youngho

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Do you expect any perceived spatial quality difference between a very wide directivity Vimberg Mino and a narrow directivity D&D 8c when listened outdoors or in an anechoic room (both speakers EQ'd for flat on-axis response and high-passed if needed to match bandwidth)?
I don't have any relevant experience, sorry.
It seems logical, in my view, that for the assessment of spatial quality alone no other variables should be at play (frequency response and bandwidth differences)...(because there are other variables at play - see Rega, Kef and Quad FR plots).
The variable was the loudspeaker. This was before 1986.
(if the goal is to assess whether transduction-related issues are audible - was that the goal?).
Read the paper.
It will favour wide and smooth directivity speakers and thus introduce bias.
Yet, the preference testing between the Revel Salon 2 and the JBL Array 1400 shown on page 399 of the second edition of Toole's book:
"When they are put against each other in double-blind tests, the audible differences are small, somewhat program dependent, and listener ratings tend to vary slightly and randomly around a high number. In the end there may be no absolute winner that is revealed with any statistical confidence; the differences in opinion are of the same size as those that could occur by chance." What interests me are what factors result in such similar preference testing, other than the on-axis response from the transition zone up to 5 kHz or so. Here are the measurements:

Screen Shot 2021-10-04 at 6.41.03 AM.png


What's the general consensus in regard to on-axis frequency response measured in anechoic conditions at one metre?
Don't forget the effects of diffraction, whichs is part of why Kevin Voeck of Revel had advocated for use of listening window, rather than on-axis. I believe that this is why Harman replaced the on-axis response with LW in their predicted in-room response. Toole wrote an interesting article on the measurement and calibration of sound systems.
Do the best-performing (from a technical perspective) speakers take the non-seated position or the presence of a console or desk into account?
Instead of asking more and more questions, perhaps you could answer this yourself for, example, the Newman KH310 or Genelec 8351b.
But I think that you may be missing the point which is that one cannot assess one parameter unless no other variables are introduced.
The variable is the loudspeaker. Consider allergy testing in medicine, where the variable is the allergen. One could quibble about why an endless number specific varieties, why partially or extensively hydrolyzed allergens, or partially or extensively denatured version were also tested.
Unless one uses one same speaker such as the B&O which allows the user to widen or narrow directivity then one is comparing apples to oranges...
One would have to show that the anechoic on-axis or listening window measurements of the Beolab 90 were identical first. I haven't seen that, so it's possible, but I'd like to see that first.
From where I am standing it seems as though data interpretation and consequent steps in the research development were aimed at validating the importance or superiority of wide-directivity.
I don't know when Toole began working for Harman, but at the time of the paper under discussion, he was at the NRC, so you're standing decades later and attributing false motivations, commercial or otherwise, to what seems to me to be an earnest attempt to begin using available tools to address interesting questions regarding loudspeakers at a time when the available body of literature was quite limited.
Perhaps wide-directivity is the best choice for pop music?
That's possible. It's been discussed elsewhere.
Perhaps Floyd Toole could confirm if toe-in is/was ever used in the shufflers. I have seen many photos and not a single one showed any toe-in. Also if you have an audience of listeners (and not just a single listener in the sweet-spot) it doesn't make sense (or matter) whether you toe-in or not, although it should.
And what about speakers which should be placed in corners or back against the front wall? The shuffler doesn't respect those requirements either.
I've only seen several. Look again at the first one you posted. There's nothing about the shuffler that doesn't allow for speakers against the front wall, and in fact, Harman has special testing for on-wall speakers.
The RFZ graph was used for illustrative purposes only. Dipoles should sit away from the front wall or said wall should be treated (was this addressed in the Harman tests?).
The first commercially available QRD diffuser was in 1983. It would be nice if Toole et al had access to a time machine at the NRC. Unfortunately, we cannot go back and ask them to accommodate a seemingly infinite number of requests. We simply have what has been published and are stuck interpreting and extrapolating, but we're stuck with what we've got and can't change it, despite our wishes to the contrary.

In my opinion, the most interesting method for addressing individual parameters of loudspeaker performance, as opposed to the loudspeaker itself as the variable, only became remotely feasible in the recent past through simulated testing: https://users.aalto.fi/~ktlokki/Publs/JASMAN_vol_146_iss_5_3562_1.pdf

However, I doubt that the interest and resources would be brought to bear, plus the usual criticisms regarding the listeners would apply, plus the question of whether simulation adequately models reality, etc.

Sorry, I rather doubt that I have adequate knowledge and resources to begin to address the multiple posts and questions with which you're likely to respond.
 

youngho

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I need to make some edits/additions:

You asked about anechoic speaker listening and comparison. There was a more than tangentially relevant study from Jorma Salmi (discussions here, here, and here). I don't know the details, so I will leave you to explore this further yourself.

To be clear, I don't think that measurements are always a simple matter. Even the definition of on-axis is not always clear, as has come before in some of Amir's measurements, most recently with a JBL speaker where the intended axis was below the level of the tweeter horn. In the example of the Dali speakers, which are intended to be heard 30 degrees off-axis (or Geddes' speakers, which I think are 15 or 22 degrees off-axis), which measurement should be defined as on-axis for equalization purposes: 0 degrees (on-axis) or 15-30 degrees off-axis? Also the diffraction issues I mentioned above, so then on-axis versus listening window, etc.

Similarly, I don't think that EQ is a simple matter, nor definition of "flattest response" (see the Welti multisub paper for some basic examples of metrics for subwoofers, then look how well they correlated in terms of changes, also between modeled and real-world), nor issues of speaker and listener positioning, the latter of which interact in innumerable ways, so one must necessarily limit them to a subset of all possibilities, but it still isn't simple, as the likely impossible Platonic ideal of an ideal listening position may be different for different speakers, resulting in the conflation of multiple variables. It's not as simple as "measure on-axis, EQ on-axis response to flat, position the speaker(s) in the perfect place in the room, position the listener in the perfect place in the room for those speakers, and then compare" different speakers in different places while sitting in different places--it's not really testing a single variable anymore.

The allergy testing example should have read, "One could quibble about why an endless number of specific varieties, why partially or extensively hydrolyzed allergens, or partially or extensively denatured version were not also tested." This is actually quite relevant to clinical practice, since patients who are allergic to egg may actually tolerate baked egg (baking denatures the protein), while infants with an allergic colitis response to milk-based formula may tolerate partial or extensive hydrolysates. There might be skin or serum immunoglobulin E testing for apple allergy, but not individual types of apples, of which there are many varietals.

I remember seeing a special cross-sectional rotating section of wall to accommodate speaker preference comparison testing of in- and on-wall designs. I believe that it was in a Powerpoint that's no longer linked on Sean Olive's blog.
 
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tuga

tuga

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I need to make some edits/additions:

You asked about anechoic speaker listening and comparison. There was a more than tangentially relevant study from Jorma Salmi (discussions here, here, and here). I don't know the details, so I will leave you to explore this further yourself.

To be clear, I don't think that measurements are always a simple matter. Even the definition of on-axis is not always clear, as has come before in some of Amir's measurements, most recently with a JBL speaker where the intended axis was below the level of the tweeter horn. In the example of the Dali speakers, which are intended to be heard 30 degrees off-axis (or Geddes' speakers, which I think are 15 or 22 degrees off-axis), which measurement should be defined as on-axis for equalization purposes: 0 degrees (on-axis) or 15-30 degrees off-axis? Also the diffraction issues I mentioned above, so then on-axis versus listening window, etc.

Similarly, I don't think that EQ is a simple matter, nor definition of "flattest response" (see the Welti multisub paper for some basic examples of metrics for subwoofers, then look how well they correlated in terms of changes, also between modeled and real-world), nor issues of speaker and listener positioning, the latter of which interact in innumerable ways, so one must necessarily limit them to a subset of all possibilities, but it still isn't simple, as the likely impossible Platonic ideal of an ideal listening position may be different for different speakers, resulting in the conflation of multiple variables. It's not as simple as "measure on-axis, EQ on-axis response to flat, position the speaker(s) in the perfect place in the room, position the listener in the perfect place in the room for those speakers, and then compare" different speakers in different places while sitting in different places--it's not really testing a single variable anymore.

The allergy testing example should have read, "One could quibble about why an endless number of specific varieties, why partially or extensively hydrolyzed allergens, or partially or extensively denatured version were not also tested." This is actually quite relevant to clinical practice, since patients who are allergic to egg may actually tolerate baked egg (baking denatures the protein), while infants with an allergic colitis response to milk-based formula may tolerate partial or extensive hydrolysates. There might be skin or serum immunoglobulin E testing for apple allergy, but not individual types of apples, of which there are many varietals.

I remember seeing a special cross-sectional rotating section of wall to accommodate speaker preference comparison testing of in- and on-wall designs. I believe that it was in a Powerpoint that's no longer linked on Sean Olive's blog.

Thanks for taking the trouble with your last two posts. I'll look int the Salma links.
Just a small comment on the "correct" axis and diffraction issues; I think that you have further supported my point regarding the need for a speaker with the ability to change directivity in order to assess spatial quality. Otherwise frequency response and other issues will come into play when only a single variable should be under judgement.

I understand the complexity involved, and part of my criticism comes from what to me appears to be an oversymplification of the subjects.
 

Floyd Toole

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From where I am standing it seems as though data interpretation and consequent steps in the research development were aimed at validating the importance or superiority of wide-directivity.
Perhaps wide-directivity is the best choice for pop music?
You clearly weren't "standing" where I was. At that point, we weren't aiming at anything to "validate", it was a desire to build loudspeakers that had the highest probability of pleasing customers - it sounds so mercenary, doesn't it? The saving grace was that we kept on publishing the results of our investigations for our competitors to read and learn from - thank you Sidney Harman (RIP). The guidance provided by the results of double-blind listening tests was that relatively uniform, relatively wide, dispersion (which came naturally in well engineered cone/dome designs) was widely approved of. Naturally, it was continued, with efforts to reduce resonances to a minimum, and to maintain smooth, relatively constant or slowly changing directivity. Improvements in those areas continued to be rewarded by ever higher subjective ratings of sound quality.

If the research had continued, no doubt we would have eventually addressed the matter of just how important the shapes of the off-axis frequency responses are, as a factor separate from the smoothness (absence of resonances). The direct sound is the dominant factor in determining sound quality, so achieving smooth on-axis/listening window curves was a necessary starting point. Few people seem to know that any "room EQ" modifies the direct sound, even though what is causing the apparent problem in the room curve is from off-axis radiation. There is NO substitute for starting with a well-designed loudspeaker - aftermarket "room EQ" cannot repair all ills.

Yes, for pop music - the totally dominant program source of the masses - wide dispersion and the consequent early reflections do seem to be beneficial. Why, because hard panned sounds emerge from a mono loudspeaker and it can be a spatially "hard" source compared to the relatively "fuzzy" phantom images. Early in my NRC efforts I set up a listening room, which in 1985 became the prototype for the IEC standard listening room. Along the way decisions had to be made about acoustical room treatments. At the time the practice in recording control rooms was to absorb most/all early reflections, especially the side wall ones. Knowing the loudspeakers in use at the time explained why - see Figure 12.9 for the very popular UREI 811, a derivative of the also popular Altec 604-8G (Figure 18.5d). The off-axis performance was dreadful, best eliminated. The "live-end-dead-end" recording control room was in fashion. Real science, in my terms, was absent.

I installed heavy, sound-absorbing drapes along the wall behind the loudspeakers on a track that allowed them to be collapsed, or expanded, and also to be moved along the side wall to attenuate the first wall reflection. I invited several audio enthusiasts to experience the various setups, all blind, playing a wide selection of music. The only arrangement that made a meaningful difference was that which addressed the side wall reflection. Preferences settled into a pattern in which classical music was generally preferred with wall uncovered, seemingly expanding the soundstage in a "natural" way. Most popular music was also approved of in this condition, but there were some listeners who preferred having the side wall damped - yielding a "tighter soundstage". Having the ability to choose quickly and easily had enough appeal to one of the listeners that he implemented it at his home. It beats building the feature into the loudspeaker, which is fixed for life.
 
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krabapple

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I see, thanks. I understand and have experience the appeal of those late reflections coming from the front, namely with Apogee, MartinLogan, Magnepan and Quad speakers, but if the upmixer does not "extract" the sound sources (instruments and vocals) from the signal being fed to the rear channels it may sound at least strange if not disruptive.


You could, you know, actually try some upmixers and see how 'strange' or 'disruptive' the result sounds to you.

I use DPLIIx Music mode (and if I must, Dolby Surround Upmixer) for virtually all music that isn't a multichannel mix, to render 2.0 to multichannel (five identical studio monitor-type speakers all around, plus two subs). For much 'classical' music and other music recorded in a real space, as Dr. Toole says, I mainly get a timbrally pleasing expanded sense of space, with the performers remaining in front of me. . For rock/pop studio creations I get that (thanks to studio-created reverb), plus the occasional instrumental or vocal part emanating from the surrounds , which is actually welcome...to someone like me who really enjoys multichannel remixes.

Indeed, not infrequently, I prefer the upmix of the original 2.0 mix to a new 5.1 multichannel remix, as the former inevitably recalls the 'sound' of the original mix (the original studio production choices, e.g. plate reverb) better than the latter, which uses software to emulate them.
 
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tuga

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You could, you know, actually try some upmixers and see how 'strange' or 'disruptive' the result sounds to you.

I use DPLIIx Music mode (and if I must, Dolby Surround Upmixer) for virtually all music that isn't a multichannel mix, to render 2.0 to multichannel (five identical studio monitor-type speakers all around, plus two subs). For much 'classical' music and other music recorded in a real space, as Dr. Toole says, I mainly get a timbrally pleasing expanded sense of space, with the performers remaining in front of me. . For rock/pop studio creations I get that (thanks to studio-created reverb), plus the occasional instrumental or vocal part emanating from the surrounds , which is actually welcome...to someone like me who really enjoys multichannel remixes.

Indeed, not infrequencty, I prefer the upmix of the original 2.0 mix to a new 5.1 multichannel remix, as the former inevitably recalls the 'sound' of the original mix (the original studio production choices, e.g. plate reverb) better than the latter, which uses software to emulate them.
Thanks for the suggestion but I have only got a pair of speakers, and not enough room for more.
 

Spocko

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This doesn't surprise me, most musicians I have met have been uninterested in audio gear, audio gear generally doesn't matter to them.
Personally knowing many musicians (both classical and not), they prefer to spend their money on more musical instruments or music making accessories (especially guitarists and drummers!!) and not new speakers unless there's something seriously wrong (speakers are broken). I think part of the "audiophile experience" is this constant need to buy a "better" speaker when the one we had would satisfy 99.9% of the listening public.
 
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