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Which speakers are the Classical Music Pros using?

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tuga

tuga

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LOL got that part, but wasn't really what I was referring to. Just getting paid to do something only means so much as far as "pro" goes. Lots of different angles, and the thread was TLDR material so just posted what I was thinking of on the OP title question.....and in general how does one recreate a full orchestral classical playing space in a studio is a whole 'nuther thing :)

You're veering off topic. The subject is about monitors used to produce or master Classical music.

Most, perhaps all, pros working in Classical are indeed "pros".

"How does one recreate a full orchestral classical playing space in a studio?" is an interesting question, why not start a new topic?
 

Ayebee

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I'm slightly reluctant to writing this (given the topic of the thread), so I'm sorry in advance @tuga but since there's some interesting discussion in this thread regarding basically "what is true high-fidelity in stereo reproduction", I want to post one of Siegfried Linkwitz' conclusions regarding "Sound reproduction in domestic size living spaces". He says (regarding loudspeakers):

"The best one can hope for with 2-channel sound reproduction is the illusion of listening into the recording venue. Physics does not allow the accurate reproduction of the original sound field with only two speakers." (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/conclusions.htm)

This is a topic that is not discussed very often in these forums, which is odd since this would be part of the foundation of what constitutes a good speaker for stereo listening. If accuracy is not attainable - then why should an "objectively accurate" loudspeaker (whatever that is - Olive score?) necessarily produce the greatest sense of illusion? I'm not an expert in this (or any other) field, so I might not have much more to add to the topic - but maybe it would be of general interest to start a new thread in this forum?
 
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tuga

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I'm slightly reluctant to writing this (given the topic of the thread), so I'm sorry in advance @tuga but since there's some interesting discussion in this thread regarding basically "what is true high-fidelity in stereo reproduction", I want to post one of Siegfried Linkwitz' conclusions regarding "Sound reproduction in domestic size living spaces". He says (regarding loudspeakers):

"The best one can hope for with 2-channel sound reproduction is the illusion of listening into the recording venue. Physics does not allow the accurate reproduction of the original sound field with only two speakers." (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/conclusions.htm)

This is a topic that is not discussed very often in these forums, which is odd since this would be part of the foundation of what constitutes a good speaker for stereo listening. If accuracy is not attainable - then why should an "objectively accurate" loudspeaker (whatever that is - Olive score?) necessarily produce the greatest sense of illusion? I'm not an expert in this (or any other) field, so I might not have much more to add to the topic - but maybe it would be of general interest to start a new thread in this forum?

I'd be interested in a topic about "what is true high-fidelity in stereo reproduction".

Here's a snippet from a very old EMI pamflet called "The Pursuit Of High Fidelity...":

GeLfFmn.png


It's not strictly about reproduction, EMI postulates that the way music is recorded is part of the chain or system which allows stereo to achieve a (more) credible illusion, but this is of course limited to live recordings in spaces with natural acoustic characteristics such as symphony halls, churches and other non-studio venues (mostly of Classical music).
In other words, unless the music is recorded in a certain way (with distant, minimal mic'ing) there's less of a chance of producing a credible illusion. Which doesn't mean that a multi-track and/or close-mic'ed recording of soloist or an orchestra won't be capable of providing a powerful and emotionally charged listening experience.

So perhaps ultimately, how music is recorded and how it is reproduced is for the most part a matter of personal preference...
 
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q3cpma

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The whole purpose of the recording is to convey the experience of listening to a real performance (even if that "performance" is partially or entirely a studio creation); imo that is the holy grail.
Can't you really imagine the result of studio work being either better than the performance (for stuff with performance as source; if only for the greatly reduced background noise that can really improve immersion into the musical landscape being painted by the compositor/orchestra as opposed to the live performance, which is indeed just another competing medium for it) or the actual performance (e.g. Joy Division's Unknown Pleasures only makes sense as the heavily processed/queerly recorded album it is)?
 

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Interesting. Do you have an explanation for why wide directivity is best for classical and electronica, while narrow directivity is best for solo vocals?

(I'm not arguing with you [at least not yet!!] - I'm hoping to learn.)
Here is my theory: classical (as produced by an ensemble of quartet or larger), heard live from mid-hall or closer, sounds LARGE. Ditto anything produced by banks of PA speakers. Solo vocal, heard unamplified from pretty close, sounds SMALL. That is, well localized. You can tell if the singer moves a foot to the left or right. Compared to that localization, even a solo violin sounds larger and harder to localize. (My daughter played violin in a youth orchestra, so I've heard a LOT of solo violin from her practcing.)

Most classical recordings are made with microphones pretty close and often elevated, so hall sound on the recording is diminished compared to what the audience member typically hears. IMO, wide directivity speakers add room reflections that mimic that missing hall sound. For a well localized source (solo vocal, plucked guitar string, ...), the reflections do not mimic anything missing on the recording, and so narrow directivity speakers sound more realistic.

Anyway, as an experienced speaker designer, I'm sure you know FAR more about these issues than I do.
 

Floyd Toole

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What I find interesting about the Fenicia is the fact that the rear-firing array is a speaker that can be orientated, EQ'ed and it's level attenuated, a topology which unlike others gives the user significant control over the effects of "envelopment" and "spaciousness" rather than 'dictating' one particular form of presentation.

At this point we are veering far from an accurate reproduction or transduction of the signal in the sense that there's a significant level of 'distortion' which results from the room interaction. Which raises an interesting question:

Is reproducing what the engineers were listening to a reasonable, universal goal?

I can only say that it might be for some people but others may find that particular presentation wanting, and may prefer an "enhanced" version, through the use of dipoles, omnis or even (gasp) upmixing. This results from the fact that stereo is but an effect in itself and that audio reproduction falls short of the realism one experiences with live music. Opting for one extreme or a middle-ground "presentation" may depend on the music genres one listens to or it might simply be a matter of taste. Since Harman's research was mostly performed using a single speaker it is unfortunately unsuitable for informing what most people prefer.

I agree with you, it's wonderful that there are all those different topologies which allow the end user to try out and choose whichever one he or she prefers.
"Standardisation" is in my opinion a huge mistake, as is trying to influence people's preferences through research.
What my research, and that done at Harman, was focused on was sound quality. If a loudspeaker is colored or distorted who cares what the spatial presentation is like? All loudspeakers of all possible directional configurations were evaluated for sound quality, and the prime requirement - neutrality/absence of resonances - was equally obvious in measurements made on all directivity options. How this fits into differing listener expectations for "soundstage and imaging" is a second level of judgment, where the consistency of directivity - whatever it is - is likely the key factor. So to the extent that there is "standardization" it is really only an attempt to ensure timbral accuracy of the reproduced sound, so that if a listener hears something he/she does not like - don't blame the loudspeaker. The recordings are also "weak links". Unfortunately, in a stereo reproduction it is difficult to alter "spatial" factors in loudspeakers that are affordable - active array designs are elegant solutions for the price of a decent car. So, "gasp", upmixing remains a viable option for most recorded material. That requires an upmixer that does not corrupt the soundstage or timbre, and that is a whole different discussion.
 

Geert

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So perhaps ultimately, how music is recorded and how it is reproduced is for the most part a matter of personal preference...
It's not because speakers and stereo in general aren't perfect that everything can work. There's common knowledge available that can help to get the best out of a system in a certain use case, in a way that most people will appreciate. Allowing a bit of room for finetuning according to personal preference.
 

Floyd Toole

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View attachment 155690Skywalker Sound which does a lot of movies uses B&W with the grills on…

It‘s pretty clear that even though the B&W line typically measures poorly by many standards, its use in the mixing stage means that it probably sounds good for a lot of music. I bet early 80‘s music sounds great on JBL L100’s.
I have heard early 80s music on L100s back in the 80s, and they were significantly colored, non-neutral speakers back then, and still are. See the spinorama in Figure 18.5(b) in the 3rd edition of my book. 80s music sounds better through this generation of loudspeakers, even B&Ws.
 

Floyd Toole

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I personally cannot imagine a Hi-Fi speaker. As I said the current technology is too crude for high fidelity.
The real limitation is less the loudspeakers (the truly neutral ones) and more stereo - two channels - itself. A well designed loudspeaker can get close to the Hi-Fi objectives in terms of timbre/neutrality, but not even close in terms of spatial presentation and envelopment. So, yes, "current technology is too crude for high quality". NO phantom image is timbrally pristine.
 

Duke

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What my research, and that done at Harman, was focused on was sound quality. If a loudspeaker is colored or distorted who cares what the spatial presentation is like?

Thank you very much for posting in this thread! I agree that without good sound quality (and in particular good frequency response, which includes the off-axis) nothing else matters

All loudspeakers of all possible directional configurations were evaluated for sound quality...

I didn't realize this! I was mistaken in thinking that your evaluations did not include the unorthodox.

So to the extent that there is "standardization" it is really only an attempt to ensure timbral accuracy of the reproduced sound...

Timbral accuracy is what drew me into multi-directional loudspeakers in the first place, specifically reducing the spectral discrepancy between the direct and reflected sounds. My experience was not unlike what you describe on page 190 of your book, though I ended up with SoundLabs instead of Mirage M1's:

"Over the years, a parade of loudspeakers went through that room and all disappointed. The room was an unforgiving critic of loudspeakers in which the direct and reflected sounds exhibited different spectra, and conventional forward-firing loudspeakers drew attention to themselves.... Then, in 1989, a new loudspeaker came onto the scene: the almost omnidirectional, bidirectional-in-phase "bipolar" Mirage M1. They performed well in double-blind listening test in the small NRC room, and also in this large one. They simply "became" the orchestra." [emphasis mine]

Once I started making my own multi-directionals, I began exploring their spatial quality opportunities.

A well designed loudspeaker can get close to the Hi-Fi objectives in terms of timbre/neutrality, but not even close in terms of spatial presentation and envelopment.

Imo multi-directionals have the potential to make a worthwhile improvement in spatial presentation, and in particular envelopment, over conventional loudspeakers. But not as much of an improvement as upmixing.

Unfortunately, in a stereo reproduction it is difficult to alter "spatial" factors in loudspeakers that are affordable - active array designs are elegant solutions for the price of a decent car. So, "gasp", upmixing remains a viable option for most recorded material. That requires an upmixer that does not corrupt the soundstage or timbre, and that is a whole different discussion.

I have NOTHING against upmixing, and would be a Lexicon dealer if they were still making that original processor, or its legitimate successor. (The inventor of the Lexicon processor, David Griesinger, is my primary source for clues about creating a sense of envelopment.)

Now maybe I'm seeing something that isn't really there, but I think there is a continuity of sorts between your old Mirage M1's and your current upmixing solution: Both add more spectrally-correct reflections than normal forward-firing speakers alone generate, and in both cases there is some time delay before those additional reflections arrive (the additional reflection path length for the bipolar Mirages, and the electronic delay for the surround speakers in the upmixing system). Obviously there are major differences as well, which favor upmixing.
 
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Floyd Toole

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Thank you very much for posting in this thread! I agree that without good sound quality (and in particular good frequency response, which includes the off-axis) nothing else matters



I didn't realize you had evaluated all possible directional configurations!



Timbral accuracy is what drew me into multi-directional loudspeakers in the first place, specifically reducing the spectral discrepancy between the direct and reflected sounds. My experience was not unlike what you describe on page 190 of your book, though I ended up with SoundLabs instead of Mirage M1's:

"Over the years, a parade of loudspeakers went through that room and all disappointed. The room was an unforgiving critic of loudspeakers in which the direct and reflected sounds exhibited different spectra, and conventional forward-firing loudspeakers drew attention to themselves.... Then, in 1989, a new loudspeaker came onto the scene: the almost omnidirectional, bidirectional-in-phase "bipolar" Mirage M1. They performed well in double-blind listening test in the small NRC room, and also in this large one. They simply "became" the orchestra." [emphasis mine]

Once I started making my own multi-directionals, I started exploring their spatial quality opportunities.



I have NOTHING against upmixing, and would be a Lexicon dealer if they were still making that original processor (or its legitimate successor).

Now maybe I'm seeing something which isn't really there, but I think there is a continuity of sorts between your old Mirage M1's and your current upmixing solution: Both add more spectrally-correct reflections than normal forward-firing speakers alone generate, and in both cases there is some time delay before those additional reflections arrive (the additional reflection path length for the bipolar Mirages, and the electronic delay for the surround speakers in the upmixing system). Obviously there are major differences as well.

How does upmixing fit into your "circle of confusion" paradigm? Seems to me that the playback system you use for listening to two-channel recordings is not something a recording engineer would want to use. Not trying to be a jerk - imo those are two different and separate things - but I would be interested in your thoughts.
Part of the ambiguity in this example of the M1 is that I used them in my large "classical" listening room - 7800 cu ft/ 220 cu m. As I said, "I built the largest concert hall that I could afford at the time" on the basis that real acoustical delays and reverberation (RT approx. 0.5 s) would be desirable additions to the direct and adjacent boundary reflected sounds from speakers. I listened at a distance of 22 ft, putting me in a strongly reflective sound field - "pinpoint" imaging was definitely not an objective. The large irregularly shaped room responded more to sound power output than small rooms do, which I believe explains why the M1 excelled in that environment (the on axis (direct sound) and sound power (reflected sounds) were much more similar than in forward-facing designs (Figure 7.20 in the 3rd edition). In my small 7.1 room I pursued the goal of generating a semblance of the perceived space offered in the large room, and at the time Lexicon upmixing turned out to be a pleasant, if not an accurate, substitute. It is this pattern that I have continued. The large delays achievable in upmixed side and rear loudspeakers are to my ears much more credible than the small delays achievable in first reflections from loudspeakers of any directivity in small rooms. When we did double-blind stereo comparisons with the M1 in the NRC typically small listening room it was timbrally superb, but it frankly was not as different from spatial presentations using well designed forward firing speakers as we had expected. This was a surprise, given the physical differences. The best explanation I can offer is temporal masking. The side walls of the room were reflective, which benefitted speakers with uniformly wide dispersion.
The fact that recording engineers do not monitor through upmixers is understandable, as the vast majority of listeners don't know what it is, can't do it if they wanted to, if they did there are several upmix options, and, finally, they may well prefer earbuds (smile).
 
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tuga

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What my research, and that done at Harman, was focused on was sound quality. If a loudspeaker is colored or distorted who cares what the spatial presentation is like? All loudspeakers of all possible directional configurations were evaluated for sound quality, and the prime requirement - neutrality/absence of resonances - was equally obvious in measurements made on all directivity options. How this fits into differing listener expectations for "soundstage and imaging" is a second level of judgment, where the consistency of directivity - whatever it is - is likely the key factor. So to the extent that there is "standardization" it is really only an attempt to ensure timbral accuracy of the reproduced sound, so that if a listener hears something he/she does not like - don't blame the loudspeaker. The recordings are also "weak links". Unfortunately, in a stereo reproduction it is difficult to alter "spatial" factors in loudspeakers that are affordable - active array designs are elegant solutions for the price of a decent car. So, "gasp", upmixing remains a viable option for most recorded material. That requires an upmixer that does not corrupt the soundstage or timbre, and that is a whole different discussion.

How can an upmixer not corrupt the soundstage?
2-channel stereo puts sound sources, reflections and reverb on or between the speakers.
Is there an upmixer which is able to put only the reverb of a symphony hall behind the listener, the audience only to the sides and behind him, the side-wall and ceiling only reflection coming from the sides and ceiling, and only the phantom sources and frontal reflections in front of the listening spot?

The reproduction of recorded music requires from the listener a certain level of abstraction, just like a photograph. The stereo illusion makes it more realistic and attractive to the ear but a good mono recording is perfectly capable of conveying a sense of space and of providing a powerful and emotionally charged listening experience. I get it from my Tivoli mono tabletop radio, in spite of it's warm and dark tonal balance, limited dynamics and curtailed bandwidth, and I listen mostly to orchestral music.
Some people find 2-channel stereo overly lacking, probably because of the absence of visual cues and limited "envelopment" or "immersiveness", and they will chase multi-channel or even audio-video. For others 2-channel is sufficient. Different types of speaker topology will produce different effects with different levels of "envelopment", and "spaciousness", image sharpness and tonal balance. The wider the dispersion the more chance of impacting the tonal balance and of masking the recorded ambience cues, because not all rooms are simmetrical, not all furniture layouts are simmetrical and absorb/reflect different frequencies in a similar manner, not every system is setup simmetrically in the room, sometimes the listening spot is not even in the apex.
Some years ago I remember quizzing audiophiles in 2 different forums about their listening setup and habits. Hardly anyone was listenting to a multi-channel system (perhaps because the sample was European where houses are smaller), but what I found most surprising was that around half of the participants wasn't not sitting at the apex, and some even had the system on a side wall.

Going back to the begining, different mics and mic'ing setup produce different results in terms of tonal balance, the amount of mechanical sound capture, the direct/reflected sound ratio, etc. Heavily processed studio mixes are often manipulated not to sound real but to produce a particular effect or presentation. Bad mastering practices not only compress the dynamic range but also affect the tonal balance. And because some genres are more affected than others it is legitimate to pursue a presentation which makes the sound of those recordings more pleasant or tolerable, particularly when tonal balance controls are no longer standard in amplifiers and most people don't use other forms of EQ. The overal balance of the system also depends on taste, with less demanding people generally preferering more bass and more treble than neutral. Some artifacts or distortions make the sound of dry or poor recordings more exciting or interesting. And depending on the listener's priorities in terms of spatial illusion he will choose narrow, wide, dipole, omni.

In a perfect world of simmetrical rooms and audiophile recordings perhaps standardisation might make sense. But reality is a lot more challenging.
 

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How can an upmixer not corrupt the soundstage?

My understanding is this:

We get our image localization cues primarily from the first-arrival sound, but image precision can be degraded by strong early lateral reflections. If the time delay between the first-arrival sound and the strong onset of lateral reflections is long enough, the image precision is not degraded. (To be fair, listeners have tended to prefer the soundstage-broadening effect of strong early lateral reflections.)

We get our spaciousness (envelopment) cues from reflections, and since relatively late reflections do not degrade image precision like early ones can, what we really want are late-onset reflections.

Upmixing can deliver these desirable late reflections in a particularly beneficial way without degrading the image localization established by the first-arrival sound.
 
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My understanding is this:

We get our image localization cues primarily from the first-arrival sound, but image precision can be degraded by strong early lateral reflections. If the time delay between the first-arrival sound and the strong onset of lateral reflections is long enough, the image precision is not degraded. (To be fair, listeners have tended to prefer the soundstage-broadening effect of strong early lateral reflections.)

We get our spaciousness (envelopment) cues from reflections, and since relatively late reflections do not degrade image precision like early ones can, what we really want are late-onset reflections.

Upmixing can deliver these desirable late reflections in a particularly beneficial way without degrading the image localization established by the first-arrival sound.

I see, thanks. I understand and have experience the appeal of those late reflections coming from the front, namely with Apogee, MartinLogan, Magnepan and Quad speakers, but if the upmixer does not "extract" the sound sources (instruments and vocals) from the signal being fed to the rear channels it may sound at least strange if not disruptive.
 

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I see, thanks. I understand and have experience the appeal of those late reflections coming from the front, namely with Apogee, MartinLogan, Magnepan and Quad speakers, but if the upmixer does not "extract" the sound sources (instruments and vocals) from the signal being fed to the rear channels it may sound at least strange if not disruptive.
In most non-symphonic recordings instruments and voices are highly correlated in L & R channels, and appear on the front soundstage. The first process in most upmixers is to separate the sum and difference signals, sending the difference/poorly-correlated sounds to the surround channels after an added delay. Beyond this, some do fancy adaptive processing. Obviously none of this is likely to compete with a proper multichannel recording, but in my experience it can subtly embellish the overall spatial impression from spatially-deprived stereo recordings. It clearly is a personal choice and the key is to have a "bypass" option at hand.
 

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This thread got me interested to watch “The Highest Level - Documentary on the Recording & Prokofiev: Piano Concerto No. 3” with Lang Lang, Simon Rattle and Christoph Franke as I am always impressed with the sound of the Berlin Philharmonic Digital Orchestra. The mixing studio is shown, it looks like they have some active monitors but I could not identify the equipment. The movie is available to subscribers in the app.
 
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The first process in most upmixers is to separate the sum and difference signals, sending the difference/poorly-correlated sounds to the surround channels after an added delay.

I used to do this with my old "Hafler hookup" four decades ago, using a separate amplifier so I could adjust the difference-signal level independent of the main speakers, and learning the hard way that the ear will localize according to where the first-arrival sound comes from (so my main speakers had to be closer than the difference-signal speakers). The net result varied a lot from one recording to the next, I can remember turning off the main speakers and listening to Brian May's backing vocals isolated in the difference-signal speakers on "Fat Bottom Girls". My brother and I listened to that over and over, it was the anthesis of "high fidelity" but also outrageously fun.

As I said, "I built the largest concert hall that I could afford at the time" on the basis that real acoustical delays and reverberation (RT approx. 0.5 s) would be desirable additions to the direct and adjacent boundary reflected sounds from speakers. I listened at a distance of 22 ft, putting me in a strongly reflective sound field - "pinpoint" imaging was definitely not an objective. The large irregularly shaped room responded more to sound power output than small rooms do, which I believe explains why the M1 excelled in that environment (the on axis (direct sound) and sound power (reflected sounds) were much more similar than in forward-facing designs (Figure 7.20 in the 3rd edition).

Thank you for this in-depth reply, wow you really did have a strong reflective sound field in your big room! And superb spectral consistency between your direct and reflective sound fields.

In my small 7.1 room I pursued the goal of generating a semblance of the perceived space offered in the large room, and at the time Lexicon upmixing turned out to be a pleasant, if not an accurate, substitute. It is this pattern that I have continued.

I really like the diagonal speaker orientation in your small room, and have used that often with customers who have free reign in a small square-ish room.

The large delays achievable in upmixed side and rear loudspeakers are to my ears much more credible than the small delays achievable in first reflections from loudspeakers of any directivity in small rooms.

That makes sense to me, our home listening rooms are too small for the reflection path lengths to sound natural. Imo the in-room reflections are effectively the "carriers" of the venue cues on a good recording, so that is the role I try to employ them in.

When we did double-blind stereo comparisons with the M1 in the NRC typically small listening room it was timbrally superb, but it frankly was not as different from spatial presentations using well designed forward firing speakers as we had expected. This was a surprise, given the physical differences. The best explanation I can offer is temporal masking. The side walls of the room were reflective, which benefitted speakers with uniformly wide dispersion.

This makes sense to me.

My impression (worth as much as any anecdote from someone with an agenda) is that early reflections are the ones which most strongly convey the "small room signature" of the playback room, so unless something is done to minimize or disrupt the early reflections, wider dispersion = more "small room signature", with a corresponding "sameness" to the spatial characteristics from one recording to the next.

Do you recall approximately how much distance there was between the M1's and the wall behind them in the small NRC room? And, how did that compare with the distance between the M1's and the wall behind them in your large room (Figure 7.19)? Ime this distance is critical to the spatial characteristics of bipole and dipole speakers, with about 5 feet being where good things start to happen.

If you'd rather not get down in the weeds with minutiae such as this, no problem.
 

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I understand and have experience the appeal of those late reflections coming from the front, namely with Apogee, MartinLogan, Magnepan and Quad speakers,

While "from the front" is not a particularly beneficial direction for reflections to arrive from, as long as the room is not overdamped, that reflected energy lives on and returns again from more desirable directions. Also, depending on the radiation pattern and positioning specifics, the backwave energy of a toed-in pair of dipoles might take an additional bounce off a side wall (or two) before reaching the listening area, so it might not arrive "from the front".

but if the upmixer does not "extract" the sound sources (instruments and vocals) from the signal being fed to the rear channels it may sound at least strange if not disruptive.

I assume you are talking about the repetition of that initial first-arrival sound which would presumably be present in the upmixed signal. I don't think it would be detrimental, as your ears will have already localized the images based on the first-arrival sound from the main speakers. And that repetition of the first-arrival sound would be spectrally correct, so I would expect it to make a positive contribution to timbre.
 

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The real limitation is less the loudspeakers (the truly neutral ones) and more stereo - two channels - itself. A well designed loudspeaker can get close to the Hi-Fi objectives in terms of timbre/neutrality, but not even close in terms of spatial presentation and envelopment. So, yes, "current technology is too crude for high quality". NO phantom image is timbrally pristine.

Have you formed any opinions on the strategy employed by Sony with their HT-A9? How would you develop a blind test for a system like this?

Basically, each small 6 lb speaker has an additional upfiring speaker and twin microphones. You put the speakers where you can best fit them. Each speaker runs a test tone for its primary channel and separate upfiring channel and apparently all 4 speakers measure the results simultaneously which provides triangulation at the individual speaker level and among each other. To control the center position and direction of the sound field, the user manually can define the position of the front speakers relative to the TV and between the speakers/listening position -- but I don't see any screenshots of that process.

It seems like having "smart" speakers knowing where they are relative to ceiling and each other generates a lot of useful in-room data that is similar to the quad-microphone setup with the Synthesis SDP-75/Trinnov Altitude systems.

Lots of marketing hyperbole:
 

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Have you formed any opinions on the strategy employed by Sony with their HT-A9? How would you develop a blind test for a system like this?

Basically, each small 6 lb speaker has an additional upfiring speaker and twin microphones. You put the speakers where you can best fit them. Each speaker runs a test tone for its primary channel and separate upfiring channel and apparently all 4 speakers measure the results simultaneously which provides triangulation at the individual speaker level and among each other. To control the center position and direction of the sound field, the user manually can define the position of the front speakers relative to the TV and between the speakers/listening position -- but I don't see any screenshots of that process.

It seems like having "smart" speakers knowing where they are relative to ceiling and each other generates a lot of useful in-room data that is similar to the quad-microphone setup with the Synthesis SDP-75/Trinnov Altitude systems.

Lots of marketing hyperbole:
Yes, I have an opinion. May I quote you? "Lots of marketing hyperbole:"

With the TV speaker system as the center channel - the most important one - does one expect state-of-the-art sound? Their target was to be better than a sound bar, not a "real" home theater.

I happen to have a Synthesis SDP-75/Trinnov processor. I will tell you that the "magic" microphone did not prevent it from degrading the sound from my excellent loudspeakers during its "calibration" routine. I had to make my own measurements and find someone with the expertise to go into the software and modify what it had automatically done to restore the inherent timbral neutrality of the excellent speakers. Yup, marketing.
 
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