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Which speakers are the Classical Music Pros using?

sarumbear

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All the workforce has not retired yet? Standards are common?
The younger generation of live engineers run around the older ones. The main reason is the amount of experience. Since streaming live events multiplied hundreds fold as that’s where the money is.

However, on live classical, the old crowd still rules the industry.
 

Doodski

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The younger generation of live engineers run around the older ones. The main reason is the amount of experience. Since streaming live events multiplied hundreds fold as that’s where the money is.
Interesting. Live events require some fitness and stamina and so the older previously more experienced engineers where pushed back/out?
However, on live classical, the old crowd still rules the industry.
Ahhh Doth SeeeiTH... :D
 

sarumbear

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Interesting. Live events require some fitness and stamina and so the older previously more experienced engineers where pushed back/out?
Not really. They are still on demand but the demand is big. If you have the experience you will have a job.

Live Nation, the largest live organiser, put out 40,000+ events before COVID.
 

sarumbear

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jensgk

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Could you elaborate more on the shortcomings of Vinyl records??
I know a few forums where many will claim they are equal to the master and ANY digital version is lacking in some way, even the best DSD copies used in the studio etc.

This video about vinyl mastering is very good at showing how much manipulation is needed to get sound into vinyl:
 

killdozzer

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Could you elaborate more on the shortcomings of Vinyl records??
I know a few forums where many will claim they are equal to the master and ANY digital version is lacking in some way, even the best DSD copies used in the studio etc.
:D You've been a member from 2020. There has been such a huge (too huge, many would say) amount of posts on that very topic and, although I know these posts get drowned by emotions of subjectivists more often than not, still many of them are technically correct and some are even quotes directly from Mr. Toole. I know I, for one, brought a paragraph where he lists few shortcoming that are inherent to the patent itself and stays with it regardless of how much you spend. It's all here, you just need some free time and patience to sift through. But don't bring it here as it will most certainly steal the thread and we have too many of vinyl threads as it is.
 
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tuga

tuga

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Could you elaborate more on the shortcomings of Vinyl records??
I know a few forums where many will claim they are equal to the master and ANY digital version is lacking in some way, even the best DSD copies used in the studio etc.

It is the other way around: CDs are virtual copies of the master tapes, they're also virtual copies of the vinyl.

Vinyl has a lot of "own sound", a large set of mostly signal-correlated audible distortions which makes its sound easy to recognise.
 

killdozzer

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Judging just by the pics from studios, I did see a lot of B&W. I also saw PMC and ATC. I've seen Focal studio equipment and I saw a lot of JBL. Brian May supposedly said he likes PMC, but that may be just a marketing blurb. And Floyds used to record in a studio that has ATC.

What strikes me is that most companies have separate home and studio gear, except B&W. I don't know if this changed over time, but you would always see the same 800 series in studios just like the ones you buy for your home.

Had them, sold them. Liked them, but not that much to keep them. I do keep my small LS50s, though. I guess I'm microdynamics-deaf! ;)
 

Sokel

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In home use the difference between 801 matrix vs 802 diamond with classical content and everything else the same was an objective circular headache with the later.The one you want to getaway from every possible exit to avoid.
Just unbearable,I have heard race motos that bothered me less.
 
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Here is my theory: classical (as produced by an ensemble of quartet or larger), heard live from mid-hall or closer, sounds LARGE. Ditto anything produced by banks of PA speakers. Solo vocal, heard unamplified from pretty close, sounds SMALL. That is, well localized. You can tell if the singer moves a foot to the left or right. Compared to that localization, even a solo violin sounds larger and harder to localize. (My daughter played violin in a youth orchestra, so I've heard a LOT of solo violin from her practcing.)

Most classical recordings are made with microphones pretty close and often elevated, so hall sound on the recording is diminished compared to what the audience member typically hears. IMO, wide directivity speakers add room reflections that mimic that missing hall sound. For a well localized source (solo vocal, plucked guitar string, ...), the reflections do not mimic anything missing on the recording, and so narrow directivity speakers sound more realistic.

Anyway, as an experienced speaker designer, I'm sure you know FAR more about these issues than I do.
An interesting note. You are very correct in your observation. Most classical porductions with solo voice have the vocalist sounding too close and too big/wide.

Correcting this with narrow directivity speakers is maybe not the correct solution…

In a live situation a solo voice projects towards the audience, and an ensemble is more like an omni source, some instruments even dipole but in the wrong direction. Similarly, a trumpet solo in a big orchestra sounds dryer, small and pinpoint accurate, even in a big hall.

i have a hunch that this could be yet another side effect of the proliferation of b&w style monitoring. Anyway, sometimes i hear huge problems that seemingly are not heard on these setups, or they surely would not pass the soundcheck stage of a session.
 
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tuga

tuga

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An interesting note. You are very correct in your observation. Most classical porductions with solo voice have the vocalist sounding too close and too big/wide.

Correcting this with narrow directivity speakers is maybe not the correct solution…

In a live situation a solo voice projects towards the audience, and an ensemble is more like an omni source, some instruments even dipole but in the wrong direction. Similarly, a trumpet solo in a big orchestra sounds dryer, small and pinpoint accurate, even in a big hall.

i have a hunch that this could be yet another side effect of the proliferation of b&w style monitoring. Anyway, sometimes i hear huge problems that seemingly are not heard on these setups, or they surely would not pass the soundcheck stage of a session.

Or maybe it is an effect of overly close mic'ing.
 
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:cool:



That’s helpful insight to share. More and more we hear about software fixing hardware issues. EQ to address irregularities in frequency response and now “sound field” processing and speaker “remapping” to address sound stage issues.

It seems like pretty much, there is no reward without effort.
Your reply suggests you didn't fully grasp my point. Using your baby analogy, it can't be thrown out with the bathwater if it doesn't exist. So I definitely am not throwing any baby out.

The neurological components that get used when attending a live music performance are not the same neurological components that are used to listen to recorded music at home. Neurologically speaking, it's like tuning to a different communication channel, not just from FM1 to FM2, but from FM to being chased by elephants to floating in space. You can't 'build' the former out of the latter components. It's like trying to build a bicycle out of mechanical clock parts: the best you can do is something really poor, whereas you could have used those parts to make a really good mechanical clock. It's the wrong goal. It has nothing to do with purity: it is just the wrong idea altogether.

The only reason we think it is the right idea, is because we misunderstand how the mind creates experiences. When we are listening to music at home, we create a listening-to-music-at-home experience, as a unique thing in itself. We can maximize the qualities of that, or we can muck it up by refusing to acknowledge its unique truth and trying to make it something else. What purist would want that?

Once the purist realizes the truth (that even a perfect reproduction of the sound waves hitting the ears in the live venue, into the ears at home, will be experienced as something clearly deficient at home, and can actually be produced as something that works better for the at-home listener by producing it in a different way), then they can be a purist to that. That's me.

And good recorded music producers need to recognize this. Some definitely do, especially in classical: they develop each product (each recording) by maximizing its qualities on its own terms as an at-home listening experience, and using their skill to best communicate musically for that situation. They know, from experience, that putting a mic where the listener sits and nothing else will NOT communicate what they, and the musicians, wanted to. And they know what will do a better job. Being purist to that idea is better IMO.

Sadly IMO, one or two labels pander to the misguided notions of audiophile purists on this topic. Same labels have been seen boasting of their use of analog tape recorders, or DSD not PCM, and for the same reason: give 'em what they ask for.

cheers
I largely agree with what you write. In many cases one has to adapt to the situation, corona distancing on stage over the last two years being an example.

But you are missing the boat completely in one regard. A purist approach can and will work brilliantly in the right conditions. I know this because there are many examples, amongst which some of my own recordings. You give away why you do not understand: you are confusing “purist” with putting the only stereo mic far away. Never heard of critical distance and making a balance with one mic ?

The purist approach is often not practical, but when it works, it gives the most beautiful results.
interestingly, purist recordings are seemingly more vunerable to bad playback.

One problem with the proliferation of b&w speakers is that they are so gentle and polite that one is tempted to use many close mics.

Monitoring a purist recording that works, can be an amazing experience.

i have had a reference recording being laughed and shouted at by the first (online…) review (while writing nothing about the music and musicians, in short it was clear the man only listened one minute into the first movement), while receiving glaring reviews afterwards. The second one called the sound capture “fabelhaft”. Does that mean the first reviewer is incompetent ? Or the second ?

I am quite certain it is a case of a man building his own hifi room around a concept for decades, a concept that is head on with the more purist approach.

What does that teach us ?
 

Newman

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You give away why you do not understand: you are confusing “purist” with putting the only stereo mic far away. Never heard of critical distance and making a balance with one mic ?
No such confusion in my mind: I only mentioned ‘one mic in the audience seat position’ as an example of people being purist about how a recording is made.

But no matter where you put that one mic, and no matter how much you personally love the result, the result can be easily surpassed with competent multi-mic recording technique. Look up Dr Mark Waldrep (PhD in music, lifelong studio owner and recorder, university lecturer in sound recording) who says that an A/B of best single mic and best multi mic will result in the latter winning easily.

Personal experience is not the way to decide these things: it will only reveal your cognitive biases.

If you read my post more accurately, you will see my main point is that being purist about inputs is tail-wagging-dog.

cheers, and welcome to ASR!
 

charleski

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If a single stereo pair is all it takes, then there was no need to write a 400 page book about it https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/classical-recording-practical-guide-decca-tradition.
The cover shows a standard Decca tree as used to record large orchestras. Three microphones in an equilateral triangle with two outriggers. A simple stereo pair is only really useful for single instrument recordings. Even for voice and piano it recommends multiple mics:
4688750E-FB43-41C1-8682-FA98A079174B.jpeg
 

amadeuswus

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The cover shows a standard Decca tree as used to record large orchestras. Three microphones in an equilateral triangle with two outriggers. A simple stereo pair is only really useful for single instrument recordings. Even for voice and piano it recommends multiple mics:
View attachment 237658

Here is an example of voice and piano recorded with a Blumlein pair (or so I've read about this disc). I think it's beautifully done and worth seeking out. {Edit: It can be found on Amazon Music, Tidal, and probably other streaming services as well.]

 
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