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Which should I upgrade? DAC? Speaker Amp?

adamjohari

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Hi everyone,

I have the following equipment:

DAC: Topping D10s
Headphone Amp: Drop THX 789
Speaker Amp: Fosi Audio BT20a
Speakers: B&W 607 S2
Headphone: Hifiman Arya

I think my DAC and Speaker Amp can be upgraded. Should I get the Topping D30 Pro or the SMSL DA9 first? I feel like the Fosi Audio should be upgraded first? Since it's kind of like the weak-link in the system. The DAC, even though it's cheap, seems to be giving good results based on Amir's review.

On another note, say I get the Topping D30 Pro and SMSL DA9, to be able to run SMSL DA9 at balanced I'll have to get those splitters? One Bear something something I saw on a video on Youtube would do the job I guess? Trying to go minimalistic with my setup....

Thanks!

IMG_9973.jpg
 

alex-z

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Your current D10S easily clears the threshold of audibility, don't replace it.

Biggest weakness is lack of subwoofer. Those bookshelf speakers don't hit below 50Hz. Adding something like an SVS SB-1000 Pro gives you a full octave more bass extension, and will reduce intermodulation distortion from the speakers.
 

virtua

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Proper acoustic treatment of your room would be the biggest upgrade you could do.
 
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adamjohari

adamjohari

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Thanks for the replies. I've been into all the gear (thanks ASR!) that I haven't really thought about room treatment and subwoofers. I should be getting Knox Gear speaker stands soon. Guess that would help a bit.

I'm not sure how to connect a subwoofer though. Need to look it up.
 
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adamjohari

adamjohari

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What do you hope to gain from upgrading the electronics rather than speakers?
Not sure to be honest, I heard online that one should build a balanced system. Usually that balanced system is based on cash. Eg: If the speakers cost like 1000 bucks, the amp should be around that price as well. What I've done is bought 700 usd speakers coupled with 100 usd dac and 70 usd amp. So I felt they were unbalanced. Had I spent more on an amp for example, I would expect the sound to be better? Not sure what better directly means, but I guess once I hear it I'll know?
 

alex-z

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I'm not sure how to connect a subwoofer though. Need to look it up.

Most subwoofers (SB-1000 Pro included) have RCA input/output. So you just feed the L/R signal from your DAC into the subwoofer, and then out from the subwoofer into the speaker amp. Then set the low-pass on the subwoofer to whatever blends best, typically 80Hz. Adjust the volume and phase so you get a smooth transition from the speakers to the sub.

Balanced systems are largely a myth. There is no reason to spend $1000 on amplifying $1000 speakers, especially in a typical untreated room. Modern electronics give you great performance for a low cost.
 
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adamjohari

adamjohari

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Most subwoofers (SB-1000 Pro included) have RCA input/output. So you just feed the L/R signal from your DAC into the subwoofer, and then out from the subwoofer into the speaker amp. Then set the low-pass on the subwoofer to whatever blends best, typically 80Hz. Adjust the volume and phase so you get a smooth transition from the speakers to the sub.

Balanced systems are largely a myth. There is no reason to spend $1000 on amplifying $1000 speakers, especially in a typical untreated room. Modern electronics give you great performance for a low cost.

I saw that the sb-1000 pro has speaker outs. Does that mean that the sb-1000 pro is also a speaker amp?
 

Chrispy

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Not sure to be honest, I heard online that one should build a balanced system. Usually that balanced system is based on cash. Eg: If the speakers cost like 1000 bucks, the amp should be around that price as well. What I've done is bought 700 usd speakers coupled with 100 usd dac and 70 usd amp. So I felt they were unbalanced. Had I spent more on an amp for example, I would expect the sound to be better? Not sure what better directly means, but I guess once I hear it I'll know?

IMO the electronics should be a much smaller fraction compared to speakers. Most of the sound quality is between your speakers and room, not the electronics. I think your original purchases were likely just fine. Do you need more power for your listening levels then perhaps a change in amp might be in order. Personally never cared for that series of B&W and think they're overpriced.
 

gonzoucab

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Get better speakers, like some Elac amir just reviewed, good price excellent performance
 

richard12511

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Not sure to be honest, I heard online that one should build a balanced system. Usually that balanced system is based on cash. Eg: If the speakers cost like 1000 bucks, the amp should be around that price as well. What I've done is bought 700 usd speakers coupled with 100 usd dac and 70 usd amp. So I felt they were unbalanced. Had I spent more on an amp for example, I would expect the sound to be better? Not sure what better directly means, but I guess once I hear it I'll know?

That advice is certainly common on many forums, but it's (imo) based in large part on non-controlled(non blind) listening tests that are heavily influenced by placebo/expectation bias. The truth is that if you don't need more volume, then speakers, subs, room, speaker placement, listener placement, and DSP(Audiolense, Accourate, Dirac, etc.) account for 99.9% of the sound quality you hear. To put it in more perspective, I'd be willing to bet that the differences between your left and right B&W 607 are greater than the differences between the very best and very worst DACs measured here. Trying to get better sound by upgrading DACs, amps(if you don't need more volume), etc. is akin to trying to get faster track times out of your car by upgrading the floor mats. Upgrading your speakers/sub is like upgrading the engine, and optimizing your room and DSP is like upgrading the brake system.

Your DAC is a fantastic one, and it is already perfect to well beyond the limits of human hearing, so there is zero possibility of getting any upgrade there(even with a $90,000 DAC). Only reason I would upgrade the DAC is if it doesn't support your use case(ex: multi-channel audio). I suspect it's likely the same story for your amp, and I'd only upgrade that if your system doesn't get as loud as you like.

If you don't have a subwoofer yet, getting that plus a good DSP solution like Audiolense to integrate and EQ it will be by far the biggest(and most cost effective) upgrade you can achieve. If you don't have a PC source to use Audiolense or Accourate, a miniDSP 2X4 HD with DiracLive is a cheap way to integrate and EQ that/those sub(s). What is your budget? @sweetchaos has a great guide and spreadsheet for choosing the best subwoofers at just about any price point.

PS: I think the amount you've allocated to speakers, amps, dacs so far is great.
 

alex-z

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I saw that the sb-1000 pro has speaker outs. Does that mean that the sb-1000 pro is also a speaker amp?

Those are speaker inputs, there is no high-level outputs. Meaning you feed the subwoofer a signal directly from your amplifier in parallel with your speakers. However, this is a last resort, because it means the speakers are still receiving a full range signal. Using the RCA pass-through, you get a proper high-pass filter on the speakers.
 
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adamjohari

adamjohari

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That advice is certainly common on many forums, but it's (imo) based in large part on non-controlled(non blind) listening tests that are heavily influenced by placebo/expectation bias. The truth is that if you don't need more volume, then speakers, subs, room, speaker placement, listener placement, and DSP(Audiolense, Accourate, Dirac, etc.) account for 99.9% of the sound quality you hear. To put it in more perspective, I'd be willing to bet that the differences between your left and right B&W 607 are greater than the differences between the very best and very worst DACs measured here. Trying to get better sound by upgrading DACs, amps(if you don't need more volume), etc. is akin to trying to get faster track times out of your car by upgrading the floor mats. Upgrading your speakers/sub is like upgrading the engine, and optimizing your room and DSP is like upgrading the brake system.

Your DAC is a fantastic one, and it is already perfect to well beyond the limits of human hearing, so there is zero possibility of getting any upgrade there(even with a $90,000 DAC). Only reason I would upgrade the DAC is if it doesn't support your use case(ex: multi-channel audio). I suspect it's likely the same story for your amp, and I'd only upgrade that if your system doesn't get as loud as you like.

If you don't have a subwoofer yet, getting that plus a good DSP solution like Audiolense to integrate and EQ it will be by far the biggest(and most cost effective) upgrade you can achieve. If you don't have a PC source to use Audiolense or Accourate, a miniDSP 2X4 HD with DiracLive is a cheap way to integrate and EQ that/those sub(s). What is your budget? @sweetchaos has a great guide and spreadsheet for choosing the best subwoofers at just about any price point.

PS: I think the amount you've allocated to speakers, amps, dacs so far is great.
I installed AudioLense. Wondering what it was. Windows and my AntiVirus blocked it. But I installed it anyways. Not sure if it's running right now. After you install it nothing happens...
 

preload

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Not sure to be honest, I heard online that one should build a balanced system. Usually that balanced system is based on cash. Eg: If the speakers cost like 1000 bucks, the amp should be around that price as well. What I've done is bought 700 usd speakers coupled with 100 usd dac and 70 usd amp. So I felt they were unbalanced. Had I spent more on an amp for example, I would expect the sound to be better? Not sure what better directly means, but I guess once I hear it I'll know?

Instead of spending 530 usd on a new DAC or amp, send the money to me. Your system will sound exactly the same either way, but at least I'll have some cash to buy some blingy speaker cables. Always wanted a pair with those boxes on the end that come from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
 
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adamjohari

adamjohari

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Instead of spending 530 usd on a new DAC or amp, send the money to me. Your system will sound exactly the same either way, but at least I'll have some cash to buy some blingy speaker cables. Always wanted a pair with those boxes on the end that come from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
lol. I can mail to you some yoga blocks after I get my speaker stands though....
 

GDK

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I installed AudioLense. Wondering what it was. Windows and my AntiVirus blocked it. But I installed it anyways. Not sure if it's running right now. After you install it nothing happens...
To use Audiolense, you need a measurement mic (preferably a calibrated one) like the miniDSP UMIK-1. If you don’t have one, most people around here would agree that it is a better investment than a new DAC.

However, you have to pay for Audiolense. Room Equalization Wizard (REW) is free to use and is probably a better place to start as there are lots of people here on the forum that can help you with it. You still need the mic for REW, though.

tl;dr: buy a UMIK-1
 

Wes

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Proper acoustic treatment of your room would be the biggest upgrade you could do.

Yes, I would definitely put some diffactors behind those speakers.

Then, as per above, add a sub, or upgrade the speakers.
 
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