Which Preamp For Sm7b?

[AnalogSteph]

Interesting. It does look like Sennheiser mics are comparatively cheap "down under", with best AUD prices maybe 10% above EUR pricing, despite the rather large disparity in exchange rate (1.63:1). (For example, I found the MK4 @ 298 AUD, while Thomann sells it @ 281€ right now. Corresponding MKS4 shockmount @ 108 AUD vs. 97€.)
Rode mics are more like 35% higher at the same shops, which is more along the lines of what I would have expected. (Except the NT1-A, 176€ vs. 299 AUD. By contrast, NT1, 252€ vs. 349 AUD. Its native Australia has to be one of the few places where the NT1-A isn't massively popular; in the US Sweetwater has it for 229$ vs. 349$ for the NT1.)
Buying Shure mics in Australia does not seem to be a good idea unless you've got an arm and a leg to spare, they're priced at least 70% higher. Roughly the same for AT. (The AT2035 is still a decent deal @ 239 AUD, just not quite as good as @ 151€.) They're all imports for both countries, so maybe not the biggest surprise.

So getting an MK4 + MKS4 combo would be only 16% more expensive than a similar NT1 in Australia, while in Germany you're paying 47% more. Somebody's got some good customers to keep down under, it appears. (Not a huge surprise given their lively music scene, and I think there's a fair bit of film business going on as well, at least in Melbourne.)

Oddly, if you want to be buying some Neumann KH120As (also from the Sennheiser stable), the difference is about as big as you'd normally expect (<600€ vs. 900+ AUD). However, I can't think of any major Australian monitor speaker manufacturers either, so lack of competition (along the lines of Rode for mics) may very well be a factor...

 

[jae]

Interesting. It does look like Sennheiser mics are comparatively cheap "down under", with best AUD prices maybe 10% above EUR pricing, despite the rather large disparity in exchange rate (1.63:1). (For example, I found the MK4 @ 298 AUD, while Thomann sells it @ 281€ right now. Corresponding MKS4 shockmount @ 108 AUD vs. 97€.)
Rode mics are more like 35% higher at the same shops, which is more along the lines of what I would have expected. (Except the NT1-A, 176€ vs. 299 AUD. By contrast, NT1, 252€ vs. 349 AUD. Its native Australia has to be one of the few places where the NT1-A isn't massively popular; in the US Sweetwater has it for 229$ vs. 349$ for the NT1.)
Buying Shure mics in Australia does not seem to be a good idea unless you've got an arm and a leg to spare, they're priced at least 70% higher. Roughly the same for AT. (The AT2035 is still a decent deal @ 239 AUD, just not quite as good as @ 151€.) They're all imports for both countries, so maybe not the biggest surprise.

So getting an MK4 + MKS4 combo would be only 16% more expensive than a similar NT1 in Australia, while in Germany you're paying 47% more. Somebody's got some good customers to keep down under, it appears. (Not a huge surprise given their lively music scene, and I think there's a fair bit of film business going on as well, at least in Melbourne.)

Oddly, if you want to be buying some Neumann KH120As (also from the Sennheiser stable), the difference is about as big as you'd normally expect (<600€ vs. 900+ AUD). However, I can't think of any major Australian monitor speaker manufacturers either, so lack of competition (along the lines of Rode for mics) may very well be a factor...

Upon searching more I did notice there was a lot of price disparity between here compared to the US/EU market. The cheaper Rode stuff is decently/appropriately priced here considering it's a domestic product (just realised I pass right by their office every day...), but it seems their more expensive professional gear is priced a bit higher than it should compared to US prices which is disappointing. I'm a hugely indecisive shopper and one thing I miss in North America is change of mind return policies - in Australia this concept basically does not exist on opened items, I'm guessing due to the lower margins from importing or returning to an overseas manufacturer.

I did warm up to the SM7B a bit more, if it was used for shorter recordings or a podcasting/call type situation I could definitely live with it but I am regularly looking at a screen and trying to concentrate on visuals for hours at a time while using it, and I feel it a bit too obtrusive in my face at the distance that I am pleased with the sound. I still have my eye on that MKH416 ($1050 AUD), but also looking at the AT4053b (~$680-900 AUD), Deity s-mic 2s (~$520), Audix SCX1-HC (~$750-850 AUD). The Sennheiser is definitely a great deal compared to what I'd have to pay in other regions, but I think the longer shotgun may have too many problems indoors/in an untreated room, and have heard good things about the shorter Deity s-mic 2s. I can actually get the Deity on Amazon australia which is practically the only retailer here with friendly returns, so I may give that one a try. The AT and Audix are perhaps better sorted to my use case it seems. They also have the added benefit of having a modular capsule system so if I wanted an omni or cardioid mic the capsules are around half the price of a new microphone of similar quality.

The DPA d:fine headset mics look pretty nice too. Although I would definitely have to get a second hand one, these cost $900-1400 here depending on model

 

[Rja4000]

The DPA d:fine headset mics look pretty nice too. Although I would definitely have to get a second hand one, these cost $900-1400 here depending on model

I warmly recommend the DPA headsets !

Both 4066 (omni) or a 4088 (directionnal) are fantastic microphones.

They are different, and, depending on the use case, you may prefer one or the other.
The omni is more natural sounding and, in close proximity, may very well be the best choice.
Break the bank and go for it, if the headset can work for you !

Be careful those, as any electret, may degrade with humidity. So second hand purchase may not be the best option.

 

[jae]

I warmly recommend the DPA headsets !

Both 4066 (omni) or a 4088 (directionnal) are fantastic microphones.

They are different, and, depending on the use case, you may prefer one or the other.
The omni is more natural sounding and, in close proximity, may very well be the best choice.
Break the bank and go for it, if the headset can work for you !

Be careful those, as any electret, may degrade with humidity. So second hand purchase may not be the best option.

Found a really good price on a 4088 ($220 USD), open box but listing says brand new/unused and seemingly has all retail packaging. It is a replacement mic only so it does not include the ear hooks (+$70 for the DPA ones)

 

[AnalogSteph]

The Sennheiser is definitely a great deal compared to what I'd have to pay in other regions, but I think the longer shotgun may have too many problems indoors/in an untreated room, and have heard good things about the shorter Deity s-mic 2s.

I'm not sure I follow you there. In an untreated room I'd think the narrower pickup pattern of a longer shotgun should be preferred just as long as off-axis is nice and even. The 2S is deliberately designed with a wider pickup pattern e.g. for applications with multiple sound sources (they say it right there), so it would have less of the "zooming in" ability that shotgun mics are famous for.

There is a comparison video of MKH416 and the "regular" S-Mic 2 on the S-Mic 2 page, which shows that they are quite close overall though indoors I'd probably give a slight nod to the Sennheiser.

 

[jae]

I'm not sure I follow you there. In an untreated room I'd think the narrower pickup pattern of a longer shotgun should be preferred just as long as off-axis is nice and even. The 2S is deliberately designed with a wider pickup pattern e.g. for applications with multiple sound sources (they say it right there), so it would have less of the "zooming in" ability that shotgun mics are famous for.

There is a comparison video of MKH416 and the "regular" S-Mic 2 on the S-Mic 2 page, which shows that they are quite close overall though indoors I'd probably give a slight nod to the Sennheiser.

I did watch those videos and a number of others on the mic and its comparison to others. I was half asleep at the time I'll have to take another look. But from what I remember I believe you are correct in that the shorter 2s has a slightly wider pattern, although it is still obviously fairly directional compared to other mics. The difference in rejection (at a fixed distance) between the 416 on and off-axis was greater compared to the 2s at 0 degrees and its least sensitive position, but it seemed like the rear and side rejection overall was better on the 2s, especially in the lower frequencies. That lead me to think it would probably be better indoors especially in an untreated space, although how much better who knows. I think I should probably try a super/hyper cardioid first and hopefully I win my bid on the Audix, I'm just worried that I will have similar problems in my space like I would have if using a shotgun. I may have to start with treating the area regardless, in which case there is no reason for me not to just buy the Sennheiser (athough it is double the price of either of the Deity mics).

 

[jtwrace]

I'm interested in the SMB7 audio interface and keep going back and fourth on what direction to go. Does the M2/4 really have enough gain as JK says? Any other interface options out there < $500 that are more stellar? The Motu M2 is just hard to beat overall it seems. I was almost set on the 2i2 until I saw the specs and features of the M2.

 

[AnalogSteph]

If recording is a priority, 2i2 3rd gen vs. M2 isn't as clear-cut as the playback side by far. While the M2 manages a handful more dB in the dynamic range department, its ADC features more (and less benign) digital filter periodic passband ripple and its preamp EIN is ever so slightly higher. Distortion should be fine in both. If you need a headphone output, JK has tested those - not great in the Focusrite, pretty good in the MOTU.

I really wonder why no CS4272 based interface ever seems to achieve the chip's rated DAC dynamic range (spec is 114 dB(A) for both ADC and DAC). The 3rd gen Focusrites seem to make it to 111 dB(A) on the recording side at least (which while 3 dB short of spec still is close enough), and in a loopback the Solo will barely make it to 108 dB(A), so I guess that's like 110 dB(A) on the output side. Certainly the closest anyone has gotten so far.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I'm interested in the SMB7 audio interface and keep going back and fourth on what direction to go. Does the M2/4 really have enough gain as JK says? Any other interface options out there < $500 that are more stellar? The Motu M2 is just hard to beat overall it seems. I was almost set on the 2i2 until I saw the specs and features of the M2.

Earlier Scarlett interfaces had more gain. 55-60 db depending upon the model. 2nd and 3rd gens have less gain.

Shure suggests a minimum of 60 db gain, and says with close voice work that likely won't quite get you 0 dbFS, but close enough. Personally I'd want at least 65 db gain. I've some ribbon mics that are 6 db more sensitive than the SM7b, and 60 is enough with them. I could use them with 55 db gain, but you'd have no margin of error left.

The current 2i2 isn't going to do it. The M2 has 60 db gain spec and probably would be just enough. The 1st gen Scarletts in 6i6, 18i6 and 18i20 had 60 db of gain. You could get one 2nd hand.

You can get a Cloudlifter, and use any interface you run across. But they are $149.
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...ones-cl-1-cloudlifter-1-channel-mic-activator

I had a Focusrite Forte which had 75 db of gain and would be ideal. You can get one of those off www.reverb.com for a good price. The drawback is this is a discontinued model, and Focusrite likely will never write any new drivers for it. Those still work fine with Windows 10, and likely will for years to come.

I don't know anything much about the SSL 2+, but it has 62 db gain specs and excellent EIN specs. Actually the EIN is so good it is nearly hard to believe. $280.
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SSL2Plus--solid-state-logic-ssl2-usb-audio-interface

You can listen to this. He is using an Audient ID14 which claims 66 db gain, but it is deceptive. It has 56 db gain and 10 db of digital software gain. He is running this wide open.

Here is another where I think he added gain digitally in post with the same ID14 interface.

 

[jtwrace]

Earlier Scarlett interfaces had more gain. 55-60 db depending upon the model. 2nd and 3rd gens have less gain.

Shure suggests a minimum of 60 db gain, and says with close voice work that likely won't quite get you 0 dbFS, but close enough. Personally I'd want at least 65 db gain. I've some ribbon mics that are 6 db more sensitive than the SM7b, and 60 is enough with them. I could use them with 55 db gain, but you'd have no margin of error left.

The current 2i2 isn't going to do it. The M2 has 60 db gain spec and probably would be just enough. The 1st gen Scarletts in 6i6, 18i6 and 18i20 had 60 db of gain. You could get one 2nd hand.

You can get a Cloudlifter, and use any interface you run across. But they are $149.
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...ones-cl-1-cloudlifter-1-channel-mic-activator

I had a Focusrite Forte which had 75 db of gain and would be ideal. You can get one of those off www.reverb.com for a good price. The drawback is this is a discontinued model, and Focusrite likely will never write any new drivers for it. Those still work fine with Windows 10, and likely will for years to come.

I don't know anything much about the SSL 2+, but it has 62 db gain specs and excellent EIN specs. Actually the EIN is so good it is nearly hard to believe. $280.
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SSL2Plus--solid-state-logic-ssl2-usb-audio-interface

You can listen to this. He is using an Audient ID14 which claims 66 db gain, but it is deceptive. It has 56 db gain and 10 db of digital software gain. He is running this wide open.

Here is another where I think he added gain digitally in post with the same ID14 interface.

Thanks. After so much reading. listening tests etc I think I'm going to try the Motu M2. When I had the 8a it was a fantastic piece so I'd like to give the company another go. It just seems to me to have a good balance of everything and I can always return it if it doesn't work for me.

 

[AnalogSteph]

The amount of gain pretty much is only relevant for live applications (broadcasting, streaming etc.). Otherwise applying digital gain in software is trivial, and you need just enough analog gain for preamp noise floor to be lifted comfortably above ADC noise floor (>10 dB) - they'll all do that. According to JK, the Solo 3rd gen has a maximum total system gain of +47 dBFS @ 0 dBu, so the -129 dBu EIN translates to -82 dBFS worth of noise with an ADC that'll deliver -111 dBFS(A) by itself, so preamp noise is ~30 dB higher than ADC noise at this point.

In a price-sensitive application, it doesn't have to be a Cloudlifter if you do need extra gain - I'd consider the cheap-as-chips Klark Teknik inline preamps instead.

I had a Focusrite Forte which had 75 db of gain and would be ideal.

Given the 0 dBFS input level of +12 dBu, that translates to a total system gain of +63 dBFS @ 0 dBu. I won't be surprised if that's about 10 dB more than you commonly need.

 

[TimW]

I have been recording a friend that uses an SM7B for podcasts and rock vocals. I have used it with my Behringer UMC404HD and with my Focusrite ISA Two. The friend is rather loud even when he's just talking and he likes to keep the mic close to his face. We have used his cloudlifter with the Behringer for the podcast, and in that config the gain on the Behringer is turned almost all the way down. For singing I have to take the cloudlifter out of the chain to avoid clipping with the Behringer. The ISA Two has more than enough gain and I think my Scarlett 18i20 3rd gen would have enough on its own as well. If the performer is going to be more than a foot from the mic and talking quietly then you may need more gain but I would start out with a standard interface and see if it works before buying an additional gain stage.

 

[jtwrace]

The only thing is I'm trying to stay away from any added hardware whether it's a Cloudlifter, Fethead or the Klark with the M2. In the M2 review with JK shown here as it adds an odd noise with Phantom Power on.

 

[AnalogSteph]

The only thing is I'm trying to stay away from any added hardware whether it's a Cloudlifter, Fethead or the Klark with the M2. In the M2 review with JK shown here as it adds an odd noise with Phantom Power on.

Wait. As I understand it, this issue only appears if no phantom power is being drawn while being enabled, and is most prominent at full gain. Inline preamps, however, do run on phantom power, and they reduce the amount of gain you need as well.

The only scenario in which this problem would appear is having a dynamic mic plugged in with phantom power enabled, but that would be silly since you can even control phantom power individually, and would normally have that turned off in this scenario. So you really have to put in some effort to even trigger it.

 

[jtwrace]

Wait. As I understand it, this issue only appears if no phantom power is being drawn while being enabled, and is most prominent at full gain. Inline preamps, however, do run on phantom power, and they reduce the amount of gain you need as well.

The only scenario in which this problem would appear is having a dynamic mic plugged in with phantom power enabled, but that would be silly since you can even control phantom power individually, and would normally have that turned off in this scenario. So you really have to put in some effort to even trigger it.

You need phantom power to power one of the listed Inline preamps thus inducing the noise.

 

[jtwrace]

Phantom Power On

Phantom Power Off

 

[AnalogSteph]

You need phantom power to power one of the listed Inline preamps thus inducing the noise.

No.

As I understand it, this issue only appears if no phantom power is being drawn while being enabled

Inline preamps, however, do run on phantom power

If memory serves, phantom power will also quieten down after a load has briefly been connected and disconnected. So this weird oscillation only appears if phantom power is brought up while nothing on that input (or any input, even) draws anything from it.

If the device is used in a sensible manner, this should be a complete non-issue.

 

[jtwrace]

No.

Um, yes, these do require phantom power.
https://www.cloudmicrophones.com/cloudlifter-cl-1

 

[AnalogSteph]

Um, yes, these do require phantom power.
https://www.cloudmicrophones.com/cloudlifter-cl-1

*sigh* OK, let's try that again.
Yes, these do require phantom power (operating an amplifier circuit on thin air is kinda hard after all). Ergo, phantom power is being loaded with a few mA. Ergo, the weird low-frequency oscillation in the MOTU promptly stops.

The presence of this low-frequency oscillation can be described with a truth table:

Phantom Power...
           | On  | Off |
-----------+-----+-----+
    loaded | No  | No  |
-----------+-----+-----+
not loaded | Yes | No  |
-----------+-----+-----+

(Jeez, these code blocks on here are lame. No inline formatting at all, even though the PRE element would support that just fine.)

In practice, you would be using either of these two combinations:
Phantom power on + loaded (= condenser mic, dynamic with inline preamp etc.)
Phantom power off + not loaded (= dynamic mic "barefoot")

The offending combination would equate to phantom power on with a "barefoot" dynamic mic connected. But why would you even do that? Phantom power can be individually enabled per input in the MOTU, so there is no reason for turning it on if the mic does not require any to begin with. This, I believe, also is why the issue was not caught in development, or perhaps even deemed irrelevant.

 

[David_H]

I was surprised at the price myself. I'm stuck in Australia because of covid-19, and due to being totally sold out here I had to import both the SM7B and the DM1 dynamite which ended up cost me ~$580 USD, $80 of which was postage fees. That is about $830 AUD/510€ for both. It seems the going rate here for the MKH416 is about $1050 AUD which only ends up being about $650 euro, so I'm surprised its so cheap compared to the US/EU. But those prices are from some big music retailers here so I have no reason to believe it's counterfeit.

I was actually thinking about picking up the modmic wireless for on-the-road use

But the sound quality will not be the same as that of SM7B