Which of these amps would sound best

[voodooless]

@kevinsonic, you seem to have a knack for buying broken stuff. Don't fall for it again, buy something you know works!

 

[kevinsonic]

You cannot use AI this way. Chatgpt is not an oracle. Try instead to ask "what amp, according to objective measurements...." and let's see what he answers this time

i asked chatgpt so many questions my head hurts without being able to make a decision because of not trusting its reasoning, so after all that i ended up with you guys...some info it gave was helpful, i will send some responses a little later but i don't want to clutter up this thread as some of the answers it gave was extensive

 

[voodooless]

because of not trusting its reasoning

I cannot reason; it can only pretend to do so...

 

[kevinsonic]

In general, many AVR have excellent performance. Some have great DSP / Equalization features, even including room correction with a measurement microphone. Opinions about 'not pure music' are just not true if the starting point is the AVR with all of the settings flat, and it is working, not garbage, level-matched...

I can't comment on all of those individual amps you listed except to say if they are working properly, they will sound the same, unless you do something wacky like hook up an Infinity Kappa 9 or some other impossible-to-drive speaker.

Thank you, all the mountains of info on chatgpt that seemingly an ai bot going out of its way to describe why vintage stereo amps are better suited for music than AVR's amounting to nothing.... i spent i week comparing amps on there...

 

[DanielT]

i asked chatgpt so many questions my head hurts ...

Ask us instead.

Regarding Hifi that is.

By the way, check here what AI refers to:


So ask us directly instead.

 

[voodooless]

Maybe tell it how there can be so many claimed differences when almost all amps measure beyond audible thresholds when driven within safe operating parameters...

 

[kevinsonic]

IF the Denon PMA-450 or Marantz PM-53 you are considering works without any noise, they should last a few more (or many) years. But you can't be sure. Those thirty-year-old, mid-90s amplifiers with that look are usually the least sought after on the market. It's about their looks, not their performance or functions.

People pay more if the amplifiers/receivers are and look older than those from the 1990s. It may seem a bit crazy, but there is a craze for older ones in many countries. This means that around thirty-year-old can usually be obtained for almost no money at all. Around $50 or so.For such a low price; buy, hope for the best and be happy.

I do like the looks of some of the vintage amps, but if it doesn't sound the part to me it would be worthless, i must say though that all the options i listed above would blow away what i had in my younger years (nad 3020 / technics suv-300 and 500) so still they must be good, but considering their age now... that is a worry for sure.

 

[kevinsonic]

Consider a modern Denon or Marantz AVR that is compatible with the ($20) Audyssey MultEQ Editor app (Google Play or App Store). The 'About this app' detail at each store lists which Denon or Marantz AVR's are compatible - I do not see the Denon '1912' listed as being compatible.

Amir reviewed the Audyssey MultEQ Editor app and recommends it:

'Audyssey Room EQ Review'

Apr 21, 2020

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Audyssey Room Equalization. Audyssey is standard technology in a number of Audio/Video Receivers such as the Denon AVR-X3600H I recently reviewed. The standard version in the AVR is mostly all or nothing so I downloaded the Marantz/Denon Android App that for $20 lets you customize some critical aspects of it as you will see later.

My setup is my main music system which I would show you a picture of but it got so torn up with cables going everywhere to wire up the AVR which I am ashamed to show you. So see this picture from...

• amirm
• Replies: 1,056
• Forum: Room Acoustics and General Speaker Discussions

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Thanks that sounds like an excellent option, but something tells me any of these will fall out of my budget, but how about one thats not on the list and just using a good pc equalizer.

 

[kevinsonic]

Plus, considering that TS has a tight budget, the fact that you can usually find not-too-old AVRs at a very low price is an advantage.
In any case, I suspect that the pricing of used AVRs is the same in South Africa as it is in many other countries.

ok i think now i'm starting to get my whole understanding tipped towards rather going with a modern AVR thanks.

 

[kevinsonic]

It may be difficult to find the appropriate transistors to replace the broken ones. It also sounds like major work, and thus a repair could end up being expensive, especially if some other components were adversely affected and needed replacing. At this stage, it would seem prudent to look for a different amplifier.

The AVR-1912 has 90W/channel into 8ohms (20Hz – 20kHz, THD 0.08 %), and should be able to meet that specification when driving two channels in a stereo configuration. It seems like a reasonable unit, with the benefits of bass management for a subwoofer.

Ok that revolution in my mind is taking place, i think i am going to search for some AVRs thats available where i am in my budget range and post them up, i just want to buy something that will sound good with my speakers and last for some time.

 

[kevinsonic]

I missed you writing that. What @witwald says about that au d5 is correct.

Forget about that au d5. You have a tight budget and have no knowledge, if I understand correctly, to troubleshoot and repair such an amplifier yourself. To hand it in to a professional repairman who charges by the hour, .. forget about that too.That in itself can cost a lot.
View attachment 469339

Edit:
How often do used amplifiers that are several decades old pop up on the market in South Africa?

@kevinsonic do you have a link to a site you look at used amplifiers on? Feel free to link to it. I'm a little curious about what's on your used Hifi market.

Thank you just as well, i now told the person he must go get a quote first then let me know costs involved...

i use facebook mainly. then there is gumtree.co.za and junkmail.co.za, it would be great if you could go through the list on FB, every 2nd week the amp list changes almost entirely. all you need to do is in facebook market type in Amplifiers Johannesburg and extend the radius to around 100km

 

[DanielT]

I do like the looks of some of the vintage amps, but if it doesn't sound the part to me it would be worthless, i must say though that all the options i listed above would blow away what i had in my younger years (nad 3020 / technics suv-300 and 500) so still they must be good, but considering their age now... that is a worry for sure.

I tested a classic old NAD 3020 a few years ago. Okay, only 20 watts in that 3020, but with my then 89 dB sensitive speakers I could play so loud that the neighbors were pissed off. Which of course I didn't.
Sold the 3020 later because I was getting increasingly annoyed by the humming transformer.

The difference between the vintage NAD 3020 and the other amplifiers you're looking at is 20 watts vs around 60 watts for them. If all the amplifiers work as they should and you don't have super low sensitive speakers and play at quite high volumes, there is no difference in sound between them.

 

[kevinsonic]

@kevinsonic, you seem to have a knack for buying broken stuff. Don't fall for it again, buy something you know works!

true, i want it so bad that i buy it broken as its affordable, and then only to find it will cost me more to fix it need to rather go with the good advice i get on here, and stick with it. This time I Will.

 

[kevinsonic]

I cannot reason; it can only pretend to do so...

you are right, i found that out the "the long and headache causing" way

 

[DanielT]

Thank you just as well, i now told the person he must go get a quote first then let me know costs involved...

Well you can do that BUT it just sounds too complicated. My advice stands and remains the same, don't buy it. There are other used amplifiers.

 

[kevinsonic]

Maybe tell it how there can be so many claimed differences when almost all amps measure beyond audible thresholds when driven within safe operating parameters...

ok i couldn't resist, this is what it said: (but i dont want to linger on this perhaps we should create a seperate AI topic...)

So it said:

That’s the heart of the long-running “all amps sound the same” vs. “amps have different characters” debate — and you’re right, on paper, many modern amps do measure so cleanly that they’re well past the limits of human hearing when run within their rated specs.


The reason so many differences are still claimed (and sometimes real) comes down to a few things:

---

1. Specs don’t tell the whole story​

• Bench tests usually measure steady-state sine waves into resistive loads.
• Real music is dynamic, with fast transients, complex impedance curves, and speakers that aren’t resistors.
• Two amps with identical THD+N and SNR specs at 1 kHz, 1 W, can behave differently with a tough speaker load at high volume.

---

2. Audible differences often come from operating near limits​

• Within safe parameters into easy loads, you won’t hear much difference.
• Push the amp toward its limits (low impedance, high SPL peaks, big dynamic swings), and differences in power supply headroom, thermal management, and current delivery show up — sometimes as clipping character, sometimes as compression before clipping.

---

3. Differences in “voicing” and topology​

• Even with inaudible distortion, frequency response shaping or feedback design can subtly shift tonal balance.
• Tube vs. solid-state vs. Class D, or even different implementations within the same class, can change harmonic profile (especially in overload or with reactive loads).

---

4. Psychoacoustics and expectation bias​

• This is a big one — our brains are incredibly good at convincing us we hear what we expect to hear, especially if we know what we’re listening to.
• Sighted listening tests have repeatedly shown that perceived differences shrink or disappear under blind testing, unless the amps are pushed outside safe operating parameters.

---

5. Marketing and “feature storytelling”​

• Manufacturers know “sounds the same as others” isn’t sexy, so they emphasize unique circuits, materials, or “house sound” even if the measurable differences are negligible in normal use.
• The claims can be exaggerated far beyond the actual audible reality.

---

Bottom line:
If two amps measure flat, have low distortion/noise well below audible levels, and are used within their capabilities with the same load, the audible differences will be vanishingly small. The moment you change load difficulty, drive level, or topology behavior under stress, those differences can become audible — and that’s where the “they sound different” crowd draws their real-world experiences from.

 

[kevinsonic]

I tested a classic old NAD 3020 a few years ago. Okay, only 20 watts in that 3020, but with my then 89 dB sensitive speakers I could play so loud that the neighbors were pissed off. Which of course I didn't.
Sold the 3020 later because I was getting increasingly annoyed by the humming transformer.

The difference between the vintage NAD 3020 and the other amplifiers you're looking at is 20 watts vs around 60 watts for them. If all the amplifiers work as they should and you don't have super low sensitive speakers and play at quite high volumes, there is no difference in sound between them.

 

[kevinsonic]

I will look up a few AVR's and post them up here thanks.

Again my speakers is the SH 309 pioneers 4 ohms 80 watts peak, thats all it says on the label (but my woofers looks entirely different that the sh-309's you'll find searching on the net which is classified as a V at the end.)
I will attach a picture of my actual speakers

 

[kevinsonic]

to DanielT: price range narrowing option on fb is set to R2500 max (SA rand is weak) but lots of amps coming up in this range.

 

[DanielT]

ok i couldn't resist, this is what it said: (but i dont want to linger on this perhaps we should create a seperate AI topic...)

That’s the heart of the long-running “all amps sound the same” vs. “amps have different characters” debate — and you’re right, on paper, many modern amps do measure so cleanly that they’re well past the limits of human hearing when run within their rated specs.


The reason so many differences are still claimed (and sometimes real) comes down to a few things:

---

1. Specs don’t tell the whole story​

• Bench tests usually measure steady-state sine waves into resistive loads.
• Real music is dynamic, with fast transients, complex impedance curves, and speakers that aren’t resistors.
• Two amps with identical THD+N and SNR specs at 1 kHz, 1 W, can behave differently with a tough speaker load at high volume.

---

2. Audible differences often come from operating near limits​

• Within safe parameters into easy loads, you won’t hear much difference.
• Push the amp toward its limits (low impedance, high SPL peaks, big dynamic swings), and differences in power supply headroom, thermal management, and current delivery show up — sometimes as clipping character, sometimes as compression before clipping.

---

3. Differences in “voicing” and topology​

• Even with inaudible distortion, frequency response shaping or feedback design can subtly shift tonal balance.
• Tube vs. solid-state vs. Class D, or even different implementations within the same class, can change harmonic profile (especially in overload or with reactive loads).

---

4. Psychoacoustics and expectation bias​

• This is a big one — our brains are incredibly good at convincing us we hear what we expect to hear, especially if we know what we’re listening to.
• Sighted listening tests have repeatedly shown that perceived differences shrink or disappear under blind testing, unless the amps are pushed outside safe operating parameters.

---

5. Marketing and “feature storytelling”​

• Manufacturers know “sounds the same as others” isn’t sexy, so they emphasize unique circuits, materials, or “house sound” even if the measurable differences are negligible in normal use.
• The claims can be exaggerated far beyond the actual audible reality.

---

Bottom line:
If two amps measure flat, have low distortion/noise well below audible levels, and are used within their capabilities with the same load, the audible differences will be vanishingly small. The moment you change load difficulty, drive level, or topology behavior under stress, those differences can become audible — and that’s where the “they sound different” crowd draws their real-world experiences from.

Amps with low power driven into clipping, that is, if they are pushed hard, can sound bad. Really bad. Think of an old car stereo at high volume. It can scream, distort and hurt your ears. It could be a combo of amp clipping and speaker distortion that is the cause but most likely it is the amp because an amp driven hard into clipping that makes it sound too damn bad.

....or good but then it is about consciously creating a sound, that is, amp clipping that gives the sound of distorting electric guitars. But that is a completely different matter.

Cutting up, breaking the speaker cone is not something you do on your Hifi speakers. However, doing it on your guitar amp speakers and recording that sound. Well, it can even lead to the modern rock sound:

By the way. It's possible that that AU-D5 with parts and repairs could cost as much or more than, for example, this one:

If you want something nice to look at. Plug in that Douk VU3 VU meter with your amp:

'Douk VU3 VU Meter Review (Updated Version)'

May 6, 2023

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Updated Douk Audio (Little Bear) VU3 VU meter and amplifier/speaker selector. It was kindly drop shipped to me by a member and costs US $139.

Both the case and the VU meters are top class. The metal box is heavy as to help keep it in place and the glass in front of the VU meters ultra clear. Picture above is a bit washed out relative to the smooth/vintage shading of the yellow color. The peak LED is an added bonus. Sensitivity control is smooth and nice to operate. The two selector switches activate what sounds like hefty...

• amirm
• Replies: 273
• Forum: Amplifiers, Phono preamp, and Analog Audio Review

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