Which multichannel music upmixer do you like ?

[Yasuo]

I've played with this in EQ APO / Peace https://sourceforge.net/projects/stereo-to-7-1-converter/

 

[Sam Ash]

I remember reading on a different forum platform that someone has managed to setup Penteo on a computer such that it works as a real-time music playback up-mixer.

Has anyone able to achieve that or know how it is done?

Also, I'd love to hear from anyone who has used DPLIIx and Logic7 and has also experienced Penteo up-mixing (2 channel to 7.x channels).

 

[Sam Ash]

I've played with this in EQ APO / Peace https://sourceforge.net/projects/stereo-to-7-1-converter/

Nice to learn about this product. My reference up mixer is Pro Logic IIx and I have come to know from reliable sources that Logic7 is even better.

Have you had the opportunity to compare EQ APO + Stereo to 7.1 converter with DPLIIx and L7?

 

[Sam Ash]

I need to revisit them. My main playback program is JRiver, which has full VST support but, I contacted Penteo support and they said they dropped JRiver. Just, something was hard to support about that platform. Easy enough to route JRiver into Ableton Live, then route that to a 16ch soundcard but.... what happens after I reboot. I need a tad more robustness in my system.

Right now I fell back on win10 2ch realtek optical out into an AVR that does upmixing to my 7.4.6.

DSU is winning over Auro3d for my EDM/Soundtrack stuff, I like how Dolby sometimes takes things and throws them to the sides. But, both use the center too much for my taste. Need to retune with a phantom center to really compare. Or, just go back to upmixing in win, and having more precise control.

I think DPLIIx is way better than DSU but I must admit, I have not tried the latest version of DSU.

 

[Chrispy]

I generally prefer the Dolby flavors over DTS and Auro but prefer actual multich mixes more.

 

[Yasuo]

Nice to learn about this product. My reference up mixer is Pro Logic IIx and I have come to know from reliable sources that Logic7 is even better.

Have you had the opportunity to compare EQ APO + Stereo to 7.1 converter with DPLIIx and L7?

Sorry but no...

 

[Sam Ash]

After some research, I have come across three plug-ins that are being appreciated for their up-mixing abilities: Penteo, Halo and Blackhole Immersive.

However, it seems these are designed for immersive music production rather than realtime 2ch to 7.1 channels up-mixing.

Has anyone here tried all these plug-ins and compared it to Logic7?

I might decide to go for a used Lexicon MC12 unless one can achieve the same results with one of the plug-ins I have listed.

 

[risandipra]

After some research, I have come across three plug-ins that are being appreciated for their up-mixing abilities: Penteo, Halo and Blackhole Immersive.

However, it seems these are designed for immersive music production rather than realtime 2ch to 7.1 channels up-mixing.

Has anyone here tried all these plug-ins and compared it to Logic7?

I might decide to go for a used Lexicon MC12 unless one can achieve the same results with one of the plug-ins I have listed.

I'm intrigued to try. In your experience, does Panteo impractical to be used for non-production (only for playing source)? does it work with all streaming apps in Windows? Can it be used if an app (Tidal/Roon) set as "exclusive"?

Thanks

PS.
I love Logic7 stereo upmixing on an old Harman Kardon reciever

 

[Sam Ash]

I'm intrigued to try. In your experience, does Panteo impractical to be used for non-production (only for playing source)? does it work with all streaming apps in Windows? Can it be used if an app (Tidal/Roon) set as "exclusive"?

Thanks

PS.
I love Logic7 stereo upmixing on an old Harman Kardon reciever

I currently use PLIIx and love it but I know L7 is better and probably the best. I have not tried Penteo, so if you do then it will be excellent to a review from you because you can compare it to L7.

The Penteo upmix plug-in is available for OSX and windows and needs a DAW to run. Reaper is the DAW that has been recommended to me. I think one can then define the inputs (streaming apps) and outputs via built-in HDMI or USB to an external interface.

I think a demo version that lasts 30 days is available on their website.

 

[Sam Ash]

I'm intrigued to try. In your experience, does Panteo impractical to be used for non-production (only for playing source)? does it work with all streaming apps in Windows? Can it be used if an app (Tidal/Roon) set as "exclusive"?

Thanks

PS.
I love Logic7 stereo upmixing on an old Harman Kardon reciever

Looking forward to your experience, comparison and review.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

I'm intrigued to try. In your experience, does Panteo impractical to be used for non-production (only for playing source)? does it work with all streaming apps in Windows? Can it be used if an app (Tidal/Roon) set as "exclusive"?

Thanks

PS.
I love Logic7 stereo upmixing on an old Harman Kardon reciever

I have Penteo 360 and recently (after finally being able to calibrate my quad system) tried setting it up again (Windows 11, RME Fireface UCX II). The older version (5.x) works with jRiver, but the new version (6.x) does not. I don´t know why.
I strongly dislike jRiver´s "itunes for Windows XP-UX" though, so at the moment i am trying out other ways to get Penteo to work (Reaper, LiveProfessor, Foobar plugin, Voicemeeter and a whole bunch of other programs). I am struggling pretty hard and have the feeling i need to learn how to use a DAW before i am worthy of using a VST3-plugin.
So, in my experience, it is complicated to set up correctly and you need time as well as one or two extra programs (one VST host and something to route the signals correctly via a virtual sound device). I think i have managed to do this with LiveProfessor + RME´s TotalMix, but have to try out more. I think, Voicemeeter Banana can play the role of TotalMix if you don´t have a RME device, but not sure.
LiveProfessor cost another 100 $. There are free options, i think, but i could not figure out how they work.
All i can say for sure: it is not a pleasant experience at all, if you don´t know how this whole VST stuff works.

BTW: Just tried the LiveProfessor-Penteo-chain with Disney+ - audio/video are 80ms out of sync, so that´s another problem to adress.

 

[risandipra]

I have Penteo 360 and recently (after finally being able to calibrate my quad system) tried setting it up again (Windows 11, RME Fireface UCX II). The older version (5.x) works with jRiver, but the new version (6.x) does not. I don´t know why.
I strongly dislike jRiver´s "itunes for Windows XP-UX" though, so at the moment i am trying out other ways to get Penteo to work (Reaper, LiveProfessor, Foobar plugin, Voicemeeter and a whole bunch of other programs). I am struggling pretty hard and have the feeling i need to learn how to use a DAW before i am worthy of using a VST3-plugin.
So, in my experience, it is complicated to set up correctly and you need time as well as one or two extra programs (one VST host and something to route the signals correctly via a virtual sound device). I think i have managed to do this with LiveProfessor + RME´s TotalMix, but have to try out more. I think, Voicemeeter Banana can play the role of TotalMix if you don´t have a RME device, but not sure.
LiveProfessor cost another 100 $. There are free options, i think, but i could not figure out how they work.
All i can say for sure: it is not a pleasant experience at all, if you don´t know how this whole VST stuff works.

BTW: Just tried the LiveProfessor-Penteo-chain with Disney+ - audio/video are 80ms out of sync, so that´s another problem to adress.

Wow, thanks for this info. I guess Panteo could be very interesting for tinkering if someone has the time and already utilizes DAW in their setup.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

BTW: Just tried the LiveProfessor-Penteo-chain with Disney+ - audio/video are 80ms out of sync, so that´s another problem to adress.

I have to correct myself: I set the buffer too high. With a lower buffer setting sync seems acceptable, i think. Still trying to learn how to use this stuff.

 

[Sal1950]

Good to see this thread still lives
There are so many options available today and personal taste controls much of a listeners reaction.
I've never found there to be one best and to me the source material chooses what works best with any particular recording. My current Denon X4700H offers Dolby, DTS, & Auro options with choices that include using the overhead channels or not. I rarely have found any one option to stand out, but personally I've not found any of the 2ch upmixers to do their best job when using the overhead option, I do prefer to use the base channels only settings. (that could just be me & my rig is 5.2.4).

I do wonder what some here have as a goal when upmixing?
As I see it, there are 2 basic goals attempted.
One is a "simple" ambiance addition to more generally add a concert hall listening experience.
I've found that a couple older systems such as Logic 7 were as capable as most anything new.

The other goal and one of which very much interests me, is the attempt to make a 2ch recording sound
more like a discrete multich recording, and one which is very much harder to fake.

Thankfully discrete multich has very much moved to the forefront of new music recording today, along with revisiting the huge library of 1970s Quad recordings. There is a goldmine of discrete multich recordings in the archives which can be visited and remastered to incredible sounding digital Quad, 5.1, or Atmos releases. No longer are we locked into the matrix'd or CD4 formats that compromised sound quality back in the day.

 

[CINERAMAX]

The later Denon Marantz Dolby Surround II Variant wins hand down, can't wait for it to port to Trinnov and Storm.

 

[diavolo]

I have to correct myself: I set the buffer too high. With a lower buffer setting sync seems acceptable, i think. Still trying to learn how to use this stuff.

Hello, in recent years,many of your answers have helped me a lot . I would like to express my gratitude to you here.

Back to the point, my current system is 5.1,
L R: KH120II (30° -30°),
C: JBL 4309
LS RS: KH80DSP (110° -110°)
SUB: KH750DSP
calibrated with Dirac Live Full Range (without bass management) of Onkyo RZ50.Half a year ago, I was still using KH750-KH80 2.1 system (calibrated by MA1) and now switched to DIRAC (actually I still use MA1 microphone to do DIRAC related measurements - because the performance of MA1 measurement microphone is very good), I am very happy to find that DIRAC is easy to use and can be competent for calibrating delay (for example: KH80's ADA delay is 2.0ms, KH120 II's is 2.6ms, so even if the placement position is the same distance from the listening position, delay calibration is still required. From Dr Toole's book, I learned that 0.1ms delay is also matter, etc)

In short, my system is well calibrated and the placement of the subwoofer and the listening position have been carefully selected,KH750 is used for both bass management ( crossover at 80hz)and LFE.

What I want to say is that I think JRIVER's built-in JRSS (TM) MIXER works very well - better than my AVR's built-in DSR\DTS Neural and other upmixing methods. It is worth pointing out that I do not use 2.0-5.1 upmixing, but 2.0-4.0 upmixing. There are several reasons for this, the most important of which is that for most of the songs I listen to, 2.0-4.0 upmixing seems to add a sense of space and atmosphere without changing any of the artist's intentions. I almost never perceive a difference in sound image，it is still a clear sound image from the front. Compared with the previous stereo playback, the only difference is the increase in the sense of atmosphere - a pure positive improvement. I think this is due to JRSS's control of the LS RS playback level, which is more than 6db lower than the LR. To be honest, this was unexpected for me. I didn't expect that upgrading from a stereo system to a multi-channel system would improve my usual stereo recording song playback. I don't know if you have tried JRSS's 2.0-4.0 upmixing. Maybe it is difficult to have bass managemant for your use case, but JRIVER itself should be able to have bass management. As a Jriver and Neumann user, I look forward to your opinion on JRSS.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Hello, in recent years,many of your answers have helped me a lot . I would like to express my gratitude to you here.

Back to the point, my current system is 5.1,
L R: KH120II (30° -30°),
C: JBL 4309
LS RS: KH80DSP (110° -110°)
SUB: KH750DSP
calibrated with Dirac Live Full Range (without bass management) of Onkyo RZ50.Half a year ago, I was still using KH750-KH80 2.1 system (calibrated by MA1) and now switched to DIRAC (actually I still use MA1 microphone to do DIRAC related measurements - because the performance of MA1 measurement microphone is very good), I am very happy to find that DIRAC is easy to use and can be competent for calibrating delay (for example: KH80's ADA delay is 2.0ms, KH120 II's is 2.6ms, so even if the placement position is the same distance from the listening position, delay calibration is still required. From Dr Toole's book, I learned that 0.1ms delay is also matter, etc)

In short, my system is well calibrated and the placement of the subwoofer and the listening position have been carefully selected,KH750 is used for both bass management ( crossover at 80hz)and LFE.

What I want to say is that I think JRIVER's built-in JRSS (TM) MIXER works very well - better than my AVR's built-in DSR\DTS Neural and other upmixing methods. It is worth pointing out that I do not use 2.0-5.1 upmixing, but 2.0-4.0 upmixing. There are several reasons for this, the most important of which is that for most of the songs I listen to, 2.0-4.0 upmixing seems to add a sense of space and atmosphere without changing any of the artist's intentions. I almost never perceive a difference in sound image，it is still a clear sound image from the front. Compared with the previous stereo playback, the only difference is the increase in the sense of atmosphere - a pure positive improvement. I think this is due to JRSS's control of the LS RS playback level, which is more than 6db lower than the LR. To be honest, this was unexpected for me. I didn't expect that upgrading from a stereo system to a multi-channel system would improve my usual stereo recording song playback. I don't know if you have tried JRSS's 2.0-4.0 upmixing. Maybe it is difficult to have bass managemant for your use case, but JRIVER itself should be able to have bass management. As a Jriver and Neumann user, I look forward to your opinion on JRSS.

Thank you for your kind words! Honestly, i don't have time to listen that much. Most of the time, when listening to music, i sit in a commuter train with in ears. Once in a while i try something new with my Neumann setup, but mostly just out of technical interest if it works or not. I chose Penteo because it looked like a reliable pro option and i did not have the time or patience to try out different software. The Penteo upmixer has options and works different with every track - i don't even know how much i like it and i wouldn't know what and how to compare to the JRSS. I can say, Penteo upmixes can sound nice and pretty convincing, but i can't really "lock" into it. I can see why some prefer upmixed music, but for me, it is more like playing around with effects creatively. It can be cool, but I think in the end i prefer listening to the original (stereo) most of the time. After all, i don’t really want options, i just want something to work in the best possible way. But it seems it is not as simple as that.

 

[just1n]

I’m most comfortable with Auro3D for music and use DTS Neural:X for movies. If I had to commit to just one for double duty, I think Auro3D.

 

[risandipra]

Good to see this thread still lives
There are so many options available today and personal taste controls much of a listeners reaction.
I've never found there to be one best and to me the source material chooses what works best with any particular recording. My current Denon X4700H offers Dolby, DTS, & Auro options with choices that include using the overhead channels or not. I rarely have found any one option to stand out, but personally I've not found any of the 2ch upmixers to do their best job when using the overhead option, I do prefer to use the base channels only settings. (that could just be me & my rig is 5.2.4).

I do wonder what some here have as a goal when upmixing?
As I see it, there are 2 basic goals attempted.
One is a "simple" ambiance addition to more generally add a concert hall listening experience.
I've found that a couple older systems such as Logic 7 were as capable as most anything new.

The other goal and one of which very much interests me, is the attempt to make a 2ch recording sound
more like a discrete multich recording, and one which is very much harder to fake.

Thankfully discrete multich has very much moved to the forefront of new music recording today, along with revisiting the huge library of 1970s Quad recordings. There is a goldmine of discrete multich recordings in the archives which can be visited and remastered to incredible sounding digital Quad, 5.1, or Atmos releases. No longer are we locked into the matrix'd or CD4 formats that compromised sound quality back in the day.

I myself, in my library/office setting, use 2 channel-upmixing to make the 2 channel source more enjoyable while do other stuff in the room. Kinda make more ambience addition. Once in a while when a song just clicked in, and I need to take a break from reading: I move my chair to the sweet-spot. Sure it helps a lot to put some acoustic treatment (panels, books, drapes, etc.).

In other room, with Apple Music multi-channel source; height channel active etc, yes, I like it in the sweet spot. But not so much when I move around this room (yes I like to read and roaming around), thus for that situation (music background listening) I like it better with 2 channel source upmixed (for background listening), sans height channel.

 

[risandipra]

One thing that I learned a lot, indirectly, from @Sal1950 is that we can always manage to enjoy the thing we like, with the available source we choose, using the components we got, in the space we love to stay in.