• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Where from does the clicks come in this "unhearable" file?

tomtoo

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 20, 2019
Messages
3,607
Likes
4,514
Location
Germany
I realy wonder. Would be nice if someone could explain?
It's 7clicks that are hard to explain for me why they are there??
 

Attachments

  • sound.zip
    228.8 KB · Views: 128
Last edited:
OP
tomtoo

tomtoo

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 20, 2019
Messages
3,607
Likes
4,514
Location
Germany
It's the discontinuities where the 20 kHz bursts start and stop.

Yes that's somehow clear, but what do they do that i can hear them? Even that only 6db louder two sampels in the first burst i hear as a click.
A signal i cant hear starts and i can hear it starting. Isnt that strange?

Edit: This all started couse i had a discussion with a friend about transients and what we hear.
Now i feel very unshure.
 

mansr

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 5, 2018
Messages
4,685
Likes
10,700
Location
Hampshire
Any discontinuity results in a wideband click similar to an impulse. The portion falling in the audible frequency range is, well, audible. Blame Mr Fourier.
 
OP
tomtoo

tomtoo

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 20, 2019
Messages
3,607
Likes
4,514
Location
Germany
Any discontinuity results in a wideband click similar to an impulse. The portion falling in the audible frequency range is, well, audible. Blame Mr Fourier.

Ah ok it's Fouriers fault. ;) It would be cool if someone could explain this in words.The Problem is i have no clue about fourier transforms and math harder than ±×÷.
 

SIY

Grand Contributor
Technical Expert
Joined
Apr 6, 2018
Messages
10,383
Likes
24,749
Location
Alfred, NY
Ah ok it's Fouriers fault. ;) It would be cool if someone could explain this in words.The Problem is i have no clue about fourier transforms and math harder than ±×÷.

Basically, you get a frequency domain spectrum that has harmonics at multiples of the repetition frequency. So if the repetition rate is low, the harmonics will be pretty rich in the audible range. Limiting case: a unit impulse of a width that approaches zero time has a frequency spectrum that includes all frequencies.

This tech note explains tone bursts pretty well. Skip though the baffling math and concentrate on the conclusions.
https://ietlabs.com/pdf/GR_Appnote/IN-105 Frequency Spectrum of a Tone Burst.pdf
 
OP
tomtoo

tomtoo

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 20, 2019
Messages
3,607
Likes
4,514
Location
Germany
"...Limiting case: a unit impulse of a width that approaches zero time has a frequency spectrum that includes all frequencies..."

Can understand this like this jumps are like a pulse that include a lot of frequencies. The shorter the time the more frequencies included?
 

SIY

Grand Contributor
Technical Expert
Joined
Apr 6, 2018
Messages
10,383
Likes
24,749
Location
Alfred, NY
"...Limiting case: a unit impulse of a width that approaches zero time has a frequency spectrum that includes all frequencies..."

Can understand this like this jumps are like a pulse that include a lot of frequencies. The shorter the time the more frequencies included?

Exactly.
 
OP
tomtoo

tomtoo

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 20, 2019
Messages
3,607
Likes
4,514
Location
Germany

Ok, thx this explains why you can hear them also in a woofer?

Edit: Sry for my not so intelligent questions but thats hard to understand intuitiv.
 

SIY

Grand Contributor
Technical Expert
Joined
Apr 6, 2018
Messages
10,383
Likes
24,749
Location
Alfred, NY
Ok, thx this explains why you can hear them also in a woofer?

Yes. Let's say the burst is repeated four times a second. Then you'll get components at 4, 8, 12, 16, 20... Hz, definitely in woofer territory.
 
OP
tomtoo

tomtoo

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 20, 2019
Messages
3,607
Likes
4,514
Location
Germany
Yes. Let's say the burst is repeated four times a second. Then you'll get components at 4, 8, 12, 16, 20... Hz, definitely in woofer territory.

Thx have to read that pdf from you. And again thx a lot for your help.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SIY

Pluto

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 2, 2018
Messages
990
Likes
1,631
Location
Harrow, UK
And here's how it could/should have been…

I'll leave it to you lot to work out what I've done ;) Up yours, Monsieur Fourier!

p.s. I've deliberately left the really big click in there
 

Attachments

  • 20 khz as it should be.zip
    215.6 KB · Views: 88
OP
tomtoo

tomtoo

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 20, 2019
Messages
3,607
Likes
4,514
Location
Germany
h
And here's how it could/should have been…

I'll leave it to you lot to work out what I've done ;) Up yours, Monsieur Fourier!

p.s. I've deliberately left the really big click in there

Thx! It's not i couldnt do this. It's more how this click happens. Shure i could fade in. But i try to understand what happens with that click. And looks like Fourier told this already. The problem is his language you know. And not the french that would be solvable, no it's the math. ;)
 
OP
tomtoo

tomtoo

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 20, 2019
Messages
3,607
Likes
4,514
Location
Germany
Somhow it's funny how this interest started.

A friend of mine had a small canton speaker. And he bought a kali-lp6. And his impression was the kali sounds in transients slower not as clear as the canton. So his conclusion was(couse the canton go higher in FR) that a tweeter has to go far over human hearing to sound right at transients. Iam skeptikal about this. But....i dont know??

I would appreciate any help to solve this question!.
Edit says: Both speakers where linear eq'ed on axs.
 
Last edited:

Pluto

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 2, 2018
Messages
990
Likes
1,631
Location
Harrow, UK
But i try to understand what happens with that click
I haven't the time to check, but I wonder to what extent your original file contains frequencies above Nyquist i.e. as though a suitable anti-aliasing filter had not been used?

A useful rule of thumb in audio editing; no transition less than 5mS!
 
OP
tomtoo

tomtoo

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 20, 2019
Messages
3,607
Likes
4,514
Location
Germany
I haven't the time to check, but I wonder to what extent your original file contains frequencies above Nyquist i.e. as though a suitable anti-aliasing filter had not been used?

A useful rule of thumb in audio editing; no transition less than 5mS!

No it's as i know just raw generated tones in audiacity and clued thogeter. thx! for the rule, but the clicks are what i like to understand.

Edit says: You know with my rudimentary audio underständig it's hard to get why? To get ride of them is not the problem.
 
Last edited:

bennybbbx

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 27, 2020
Messages
691
Likes
124
Location
germany
I have done a 96 khz sample rate version and 2 samples as klick.with music it es better to check speakers. My theorie is speaker or headphones i own are bad. the lowest level and shortest click i get with canton alu mangan 40 khz tweeter. kali LP6 do a much louder but longer more lower freq click. Is somebody here with high end speakers and can please test with a Adam AMT or a DT 770 DT880 if he can her the click too ?. i have measure microphone and i record the kali output too. it boostet the click alot. and the best is the marshall DSL 5 CR. i put mixer in FX return in the amp and play and record the 20 khz tone. it have a 10 zoll celesetion speaker. the speaker play the click loud and fat and long. the 20 khz tone is play from 10 zoll speaker, but it can not hear. so a real good speaker should produce the click so it can not hear

the 2 samples 6 db higher are at a rate at 48 khz. this is really strange wy this can hear or very short i think EDIT: in the attached file zip is a screenhot that show how waveform look. if the speakers are not bad when click can hear then only other possibility is that ears can hear transients much shorter than tone hear period time
 

Attachments

  • 2 smp 6 db louder at sr 96 khz.zip
    686.7 KB · Views: 87
Last edited:

Pio2001

Senior Member
Joined
May 15, 2018
Messages
317
Likes
507
Location
Neuville-sur-Saône, France
but the clicks are what i like to understand.

Maybe the sonogram of the file can help you :

Sonogram.png


What we hear are the vertical blue bars.
 

tomelex

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
990
Likes
572
Location
So called Midwest, USA
I would say what you hear are the audio frequencies of your speaker trying to follow the signal, and not being able to, to put it simply your speaker does the best it can to respond to the electrical impulse, and it makes a pigs breakfast out of it.
 
Top Bottom