Where Do I Go From Here?

[duk]

I'm new to "HiFi" so bear with me. I live in an upstairs, carpeted apartment so high quality sound at low volume (without headphones) is my goal. My listening tastes are varied, mostly jazz and classical with some country and classic rock mixed in.

My current audio setup is a 20 year old Yamaha RX-V659, with 30 year old Forte IIs (I installed new Crites crossovers and tweeters just last year). I have a 10 year old Vizio TV connected to the receiver via optical cable. I have an Amazon 4K Fire stick as well as a 4K Chromecast connected to the TV via HDMI. I can stream Amazon Music Unlimited HD through the Fire stick and get "Ultra HD" when available. My Linux laptop contains my ancient CD collection which I can either WiFi stream through the Chromecast using VLC, or through a Meridian Explorer USB DAC with optical cable connected to the receiver. The streaming Chromecast sound quality sucks, but it's convenient. The USB DAC sounds better, but I have to physically plug in my laptop - which is not convenient.

Everything I've read suggests a network streamer device would make life easier. I've trended toward the Bluesound Node until I read some negative reviews on this site. I don't think upgrading my receiver would buy me much (?) and the speakers are certainly not going anywhere. For improving sound quality overall I'd like to add a Decware Zen Triode amp to power the Forte IIs, which would essentially make the Yamaha a glorified switch. So with a budget of under $2,500, do those two upgrades make sense?

 

[MarkS]

*sigh* You're not getting responses because this is not how we think here.

First, unless you have done double-blind listening tests that reached high statistical significance, I absolutely do not believe that "the streaming Chromecast sound quality sucks". This is the sort of thing that the average audiophile believes that is generally totally untrue.

At best, a tube amp would be a very expensive and not very effective tone control.

By far the best thing you could do with $2500 is get better speakers. Lots of good choices in that price range.

 

[solderdude]

For improving sound quality overall I'd like to add a Decware Zen Triode amp to power the Forte IIs

When you want to improve the sound quality in a (possibly) substantial way I would suggest room treatment or PEQ (when other speakers are not an option).

Adding a streamer for convenience makes sense. Look for one that has the right looks and functionality (sound quality is usually good enough)

Adding an expensive effect box (tube amp that is gorgeous to look at) will not bring objective quality improvements.
It might bring changes though that you might like.
In any case, when more power is available than you have now, it could help a bit at louder levels but any other non tube amp could do the same.
Looking at that gorgeous tube amp and seeing the glow and 'retro style' will be guaranteed to set your mind into believing the sound is better/more analog/smoother/rounder/[some other adjectives found in glowing (pun intended) reviews]

 

[jae]

1. Get a calibrated measurement mic such as the $80 umik-1. You will need this regardless if you want to keep your existing speakers or upgrade them.

2. Learn how to take measurements with free software such as REW, learn how to do EQ/DSP with a computer/free software available to you for your operating system and see if you like the improvements. You will need to learn how to EQ to a desired preference curve and how to optimise this correction for you setup. Paid alternatives like DIRAC are also an option. Information on how to do all of this is available on these forums and other websites.

3. Make acoustic improvements to your room if you are able or it is practical for you to do so and see how it changes sound objectively speaking or to your liking. You can get a clue of problems in you room based of measurements in #2 and you can get help on how to correct them on these forums

4. Figure out how to properly integrate a subwoofer if your setup for whatever reason does not have enough extension for your liking. You may need additional electronics to do this properly or gracefully.

5. Repeat these steps with better speakers if you so choose to upgrade. If you are going to upgrade, make sure what you upgrade to will at least cover the weaknesses of your current speakers without compromising too much on what they have been doing well.

6. Explore multi-channel solutions.

Good reference for looking for speaker/hardware upgrades:

Speaker Data (beta)

docs.google.com

A collection of loudspeakers measurements

Active Speaker Recommendations for USA (by @sweetchaos)

I'm constantly asked which speakers to purchase...so, here you go! :D This guide is for ACTIVE speakers. For PASSIVE speakers go here. Click on the "Spoiler" buttons below to expand each section. Readme: Legend: Active Speakers (aka Studio Monitors): Bookshelf speakers (when turned 90deg)...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Passive Speaker Recommendations for USA (by @sweetchaos)

I'm constantly asked which speakers to purchase...so, here you go! :D This guide is for PASSIVE speakers. For ACTIVE speakers go here. Click on the "Spoiler" buttons below to expand each section. Readme: Legend: Never Buy This Brand: Passive Bookshelf Speakers: Passive...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Amplifier SINAD list ASR + 3rd parties

docs.google.com

Active speakers are a lot less to worry about because modern ones tend to have useful features like network/app integrations and the DAC, amp, and even DSP options in some cases are built into many good choices.

If you are intent on using passive speakers, electronics such as amps/dacs will likely affect your sound the least if you are using competent hardware and these changes should always be secondary to upgrading speakers/room. Positive reviews/specs on this site are a good benchmark of what functions well and ideally you should aim to buy something rated high (in the "blue" on the chart) that has the features you need within your budget.

 

[jae]

For streaming- check out volumio or moode on a raspberry pi but it is more of a "DIY" solution. That can be connected to your system via some sort of external USB/dac solution. If you have a large music collection on your laptop that can easily be transferred to an external hard drive/ssd/flash drive and connected to the raspberry pi. You have the option of controlling things through any web browser, your phone, other upnp compatible apps on your mobile or other computers...etc.

 

[DanielT]

Bass modules / Subwoofers together with EQ plus sensible integration of your other speakers?

Bass is nice, I think anyway.

How big is your room? Dimensions?

Here you can count on power, regarding amplifiers. In any case, it provides a little support. There you can also consider the factor of how dynamic music you play. The more such music the more effect is needed. Even at low listening volume (so that the amplifier is not driven into clipping when there are transient peaks in the music)

How much power does an amplifier need with this type of range of dynamic music

Feel free to use this calculator. Add sensitivity to the speaker and then tell which effect you have chosen and why. Weigh in that you want some headroom. http://www.mh-audio.nl/Calculators/REAP.html You can select music from this list. Or something else, but in that case tell us how you...

audiosciencereview.com

Edit:
As MarkS says (and had more people written in your thread most certainly said the same thing): Good tube amp, with sensible power is insanely expensive. I mean good compared to different tube amp among themselves.

Tub amp for fun, to DIY (if you like it), for the cozy tube glow. But for good Hifi sound ..expensive and even more expensive. Suggestion: Run some small tube amp in the bedroom in that case. Do not worry about the sound quality then but to get a little cozy light there. Much nicer for the wallet.

Price. Here's an example:

2 x 30 watts at 8 ohm load

US $ 25,000

Produkter | Knispel Audio | Sverige

Erik Signature 70 - Integrated, transformer coupled, single ended amplifier with the russian GM70 directly heated triode. Built in Sweden by Knispel Audio.

www.knispelaudio.com

 

[duk]

Thank you all for the great input and especially jae and DanielT for the links. I have a lot to learn! Cheers and Happy New Year to all.

 

[murl]

I know you want speakers and I love them too. I live in a condo and really enjoy great headphones. You can get a really great headphone set up well within that budget and some of the components if not all could be used for better speakers later on.

 

[DanielT]

Happy New Year! 2022 here with us in Sweden now.

Headphones, one and the same headphone can differ in frequency response 10 dB from one person to another because our ears, ear canals look different. Our ears act as speaker boxes, different volumes and shape , different ears. That's the explanation. Solution is called EQ. With for example this:

Hi-res audio player and recorder apps

The audiophile software for music playback (Neutron Music Player) and audio recording (Neutron Audio Recorder) with in-house developed 32/64-bit audiophile-grade hi-res audio engine which supports rich set of DSP tools that meet any need in sound tuning.

neutroncode.com

... so you can solve it. That player and a pair of headphones for $ 100 beat a pair of headphones for ten times that price, a hundred times that price. Frequency response (on axes for speakers) is the most important thing for sound quality, after that dispersion (for speakers), after that comes distortion.

So headphones, of course comfortable that fit well around the ears, EQ and a pair of headphones with low distortion.

 

[tlin]

@duk - In a separate 2-channel system of mine, I cast (i.e. WiFi stream) my ripped CD library (stored in Plex and accessed via PlexAmp on my phone) to Chromecast Audio (leveraging its digital output) --> Jolida Tube DAC II --> Pioneer SA9500 circa 1976 --> upgraded Klipsch KG4.2's circa 1994 (fitted with Bob Crites crossovers, titanium dome replacements for the tweeters.....same as what you did with your Forte II's). It sounds PHENOMENAL at all volume levels.

1 - What format are your ripped CD's in? Are they MP3 or another file type?

2 - Are your Forte II's placed directly against a back or any side walls? Have you ever experimented with moving these around your room (especially away from the walls)? Those speakers need some free space in order to deliver what they're capable of (especially behind them and to the sides).

3 - Does any source material sound good to your ears?

4 - Has that Yamaha ever been serviced?

I don't know anything about Chromecast via VLC but DO KNOW that using a Chrome browser's "Cast" function introduces significant distortion (Amir has documented the same when reviewing the same Chromecast Audio puck I use in my audio chain). It's possible the VLC Cast you're leveraging suffers from the same problem.

The comments above from the other gentlemen about room treatments, measurements and PEQ are all valid. That said, I'd hate to see you throw $$$$ into new equipment when there's a good chance that with a little work, you can get some significant improvements out of your existing setup. As a guy who intentionally has a separate system based on a hybrid of newer and older equipment, I can promise you it can deliver outstanding results.

It wouldn't hurt to see if you have any audio groups in your area. Reach out, join an audio club, get some folks over to your place to help you diagnose and optimize your system. Just my $.02!!!

Cheers!

 

[duk]

Thanks for the input @tlin!
1. My music library on my laptop is mostly .mp3 files. I have the source CDs stored away, but no good CD player to play them on. I also have a collection of vinyl stored in the closet, but no turntable. I'm not ready to go down that rabbit hole just yet.
2. The Forte IIs are 18" away from the wall. I don't have a lot of space, so they're only about 6' apart on center and my regular listening position is about 9' away. I'll experiment with the umik-1 and REW software to see how re-arranging the speakers affects the measured acoustics (mostly angling them as I don't have a lot of space to work with).
3. Amazon Music HD sounds really good with high resolution content. Bob James, Al Jareau, Miles Davis, Dire Straits, Supertramp, etc. are some of my "go to" artists when I'm comparing various equipment configurations. Most of my problems I think are related to apartment life...noisy AC/furnace, refrigerator...and I don't even bother trying to listen to music when the laundry is going...
4. Nope. That's a really interesting point as I know that older electronics often need re-capping (hence the new crossovers in the speakers).

Funny thing - my Chromecast output was set to about half its range. Once I adjusted the gain on the Google Home app, that significantly improved the sound quality. It's usable now.

@DanielT I have Sennheiser HD 600 headphones that I use when listening to music directly off my laptop. I've really enjoyed them over the years.

@murl I LOVE my Klipsch Forte II speakers. I'm not sure I'll ever part with them. At 99dB/Watt/Meter I think they'll pair with just about any amplifier and are more than this small apartment will ever need (IMHO...I guess I need DATA!).

I'm definitely going to get the umik-1 and REW software to explore my listening environment as first steps.

Thanks again to all for all your help!

 

[tlin]

@duk - keep those Forte II's forever - FOREVER!!!!

A fairly quick and easy test (aside from REW and messing with speaker placement).....take one of your CDs and re-rip it in a lossless format (if Windows Media Player then choose FLAC........if using iTunes then choose Apple Lossless or FLAC if it is an option). Then do (if possible) some blind auditions of the same songs but do MP3 vs. the newer lossless format - you should absolutely hear a noticeable improvement. Grab some folks you know as well and do blind comparisons of MP3 vs. the newer rips (back-and-forth, mix it up, don't let them know which is which).....I'd bet the farm anyone can tell the difference - just give it a few runs and don't be afraid to down a few beers while you're at it!

MP3 files are compressed audio files (which also truncates some of the audio spectrum) whereas a lossless format will get you ALL of the music on that CD. Those Fortes will definitely reveal sounds you forgot were there since you've been listening to MP3's.

Good to hear you're messing around with the Chromecast settings and getting improvements.

Keep up the good work, you've already saved yourself some $$$$. Cheers!