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Where are the Chinese phono cartridges? I'm tired of snake oil and ridiculous pricing

dr0ss

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The issue though is that, if people here are right and you can only get 3-600 hours on a $400 cartridge, then that makes quality listening an indefensible generator of waste. Either quality cartridges need to get cheaper, or cheap cartridges need to get better.

or you're living in your grandfather vinyl times.

FWIW, my grandfather predated vinyl. My father however sold records and turntables in the 60s and 70s, mainly to people who didn't have very much money. He would be shocked at the inflation-adjusted prices of the things he sold in the day.
 

JP

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The issue though is that, if people here are right and you can only get 3-600 hours on a $400 cartridge, then that makes quality listening an indefensible generator of waste. Either quality cartridges need to get cheaper, or cheap cartridges need to get better.
Doesnt change the waste aspect.
 

Tom C

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Well, a gem quality diamond may be $2,000/carat, but why would anybody waste a high quality diamond on a phono needle? They don’t. They use industrial grade diamonds, which are more plentiful and represent the majority of the market.
 

dr0ss

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Doesnt change the waste aspect.
Fair enough. I should have added a third alternative, quality cartridges need to get more durable. But possibly changes in engineering and materials science can make it so that the only part that wears out is something replaceable, and maybe even renewable.
 

mike70

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My "400 usd cartridge" is an at33ptgii MC with microline stylus ... AT specifys 1000 hours without degradation with normal use (Ortofon says the same for line contact profiles). You need to understand that if you use dirty records (with "clicks and pops" as frying eggs) that parameter can be 200 hours.

So, in my case, that goes to 2 years aprox.

I also have the vm540ml with microline stylus (200 usd) and let me say it sounds spectacular, and it's my daily all rounder cartridge (that also extends lifespan of my MC cartridge).

The vm540 can be the final cartridge for 90% of the analog users ... it really sound very good. The MC cartridge have a tiny improvement (blind listening with digitalized tracks) at 2* the cost (as always with anything in audio, the diminished return law).

So, with 200 - 250 USD you can be at a great level, you don't need 1k USD. If that's cheap or not for 1k hours ... goes to anyone.
 
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killdozzer

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540/740 does best with low Cl and Rl around 36k.

View attachment 255996
iu

Thank you very much!! I'm not familiar with those abbreviations. Sorry, language barrier. What are CI and RI? I'm guessing CI might be cartridge impedance, no? I tried googling, but it's hard to google two letter word.
 
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killdozzer

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My "400 usd cartridge" is an at33ptgii MC with microline stylus ... AT specifys 1000 hours without degradation with normal use (Ortofon says the same for line contact profiles). You need to understand that if you use dirty records (with "clicks and pops" as frying eggs) that parameter can be 200 hours.

So, in my case, that goes to 2 years aprox.

I also have the vm540ml with microline stylus (200 usd) and let me say it sounds spectacular, and it's my daily all rounder cartridge (that also extends lifespan of my MC cartridge).

The vm540 can be the final cartridge for 90% of the analog users ... it really sound very good. The MC cartridge have a tiny improvement (blind listening with digitalized tracks) at 2* the cost (as always with anything in audio, the diminished return law).

So, with 200 - 250 USD you can be at a great level, you don't need 1k USD. If that's cheap or not for 1k hours ... goes to anyone.
+1

I second your feelings on 540. Couldn't be happier. I see 95ML gets recommended here, but I seem to remember slightly better compliance with my tone arm as opposed to other competitors. I was looking for a new model, manufactured today which matches the specs of the original model made in the 80'. It was also easier to find a match among Japanese brands because of all 100Hz vs 10Hz measurements. To make it even better, the cart was on sale, I see today the replacing stylus costs as much as I payed the entire cart. I never looked back. I honestly believe that the "bottle-neck" of my TT is not the cart any longer. I think I'm getting the most out of it sans EQ, which I also intend to do some day. I don't have anything against converting to digital, DSP-ing it ang going back to analogue (since I don't have my TT because of "beautiful imperfections", BUT that's just me, no one get offended, please.)

Another thing, 1000 hours is like 4-5 years in my case since it's more of side-kick.
 

mike70

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+1

I second your feelings on 540. Couldn't be happier. I see 95ML gets recommended here, but I seem to remember slightly better compliance with my tone arm as opposed to other competitors. I was looking for a new model, manufactured today which matches the specs of the original model made in the 80'. It was also easier to find a match among Japanese brands because of all 100Hz vs 10Hz measurements. To make it even better, the cart was on sale, I see today the replacing stylus costs as much as I payed the entire cart. I never looked back. I honestly believe that the "bottle-neck" of my TT is not the cart any longer. I think I'm getting the most out of it sans EQ, which I also intend to do some day. I don't have anything against converting to digital, DSP-ing it ang going back to analogue (since I don't have my TT because of "beautiful imperfections", BUT that's just me, no one get offended, please.)

Another thing, 1000 hours is like 4-5 years in my case since it's more of side-kick.

oh yes, if you have a decent turntable ... with the AT VM540ML, only enjoy the records.
an when i say decent i don't mean "expensive", i mean, with a decent plinth, a decent tonearm and rightly configured (geometry, antiskating, VTF, VTA, ...).

Any Technics direct drive quartz lock in good shape from the 80s is enough ... and we´re talking about 200 USD (more or less). With 500 USD including a Schiit Mani or Ifi Zen you're done (TT / cartridge / preamp).

Clean used records at 3 / 4 usd each, you can buy 3 by month with a Spotify account price tag (or 1 if you go for blockbuster titles). Do you tink that's expensive? I don't.
If you like vinyl (i'm not talking to digital guys, obviously, that's another stuff), i don't think you have to take the expensive way to enjoy very good sound (yes, very good) with analog.
 

Digby

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My "400 usd cartridge" is an at33ptgii MC with microline stylus ... AT specifys 1000 hours without degradation with normal use (Ortofon says the same for line contact profiles). You need to understand that if you use dirty records (with "clicks and pops" as frying eggs) that parameter can be 200 hours.
1000 hours without degradation is incorrect. I am pretty sure it will be degraded in IGD and other distortion. It is a gradual process, but I doubt the styluses really get 1000 hours use. If you have a decent ADC maybe you could record a difficult record (some busy classical at the end of a record side) and then record the same piece at 200 hours, 300, 500, 600 and so on. I'd bet that 600 hours use will sound rather different (worse) than the initial recording.
 

mike70

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1000 hours without degradation is incorrect. I am pretty sure it will be degraded in IGD and other distortion. It is a gradual process, but I doubt the styluses really get 1000 hours use. If you have a decent ADC maybe you could record a difficult record (some busy classical at the end of a record side) and then record the same piece at 200 hours, 300, 500, 600 and so on. I'd bet that 600 hours use will sound rather different (worse) than the initial recording.

It's not incorrect. You're talking about another stuff, i was talking about the stylus shape, the wear ON the diamond.

If you want to talk about record wear, there're many experiences with styluses (not worned out styluses, please) playing records hundreds and hundreds of hours without signals of groove damage. Remember that many (many) people only repeat what they read in some sources or comes from listening with absolutely worn out conical or elliptical stylus (a standard in 60s / 70s).

And ... IGD is another stuff, but that i really don't want to discuss ... because i know the preconceived answers and experiences before fine line stylus cuts and clean records. Some people listened to vinyl even without a right tonearm geometry and then you have to listen all the "blah blah" about IGD, etc.

I answer this only to put a certain "doubt sign" on anyone who really wants to search and experience this stuff seriously ... in other way is only a waste of time for both.
 

Digby

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You're talking about another stuff, i was talking about the stylus shape, the wear ON the diamond.
I meant stylus/diamond wear. I don't think a stylus will sound the same at 1000 hours as a 0 hours. I doubt even advanced shapes would sound the same at 300 or 400 hours as at 0 hours, there will be degradation.
 

mike70

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I meant stylus/diamond wear. I don't think a stylus will sound the same at 1000 hours as a 0 hours. I doubt even advanced shapes would sound the same at 300 or 400 hours as at 0 hours, there will be degradation.
You can doubt.
You can search.
You can experience.

Your CD player also loose strength on the laser beam and adds mechanical distortion with time and people didn't hear it. Theory is only equals to practice in theory
 

Digby

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You can experience.
The latter I'd like to try, by recording at different hours of use. I need an accurate and automatic way of measuring stylus use (in hours). It is too much hassle to manually record the time it has been used.
 

JP

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I meant stylus/diamond wear. I don't think a stylus will sound the same at 1000 hours as a 0 hours. I doubt even advanced shapes would sound the same at 300 or 400 hours as at 0 hours, there will be degradation.

On microline (line contact) styli the contact area are "fins". This means the minor radius is rather consistent until they've mostly worn away. Typically the stylus will bottom-out in the groove before they're completely worn. All else being equal they are very consistent and then fall off a cliff.
 

JP

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iu

Thank you very much!! I'm not familiar with those abbreviations. Sorry, language barrier. What are CI and RI? I'm guessing CI might be cartridge impedance, no? I tried googling, but it's hard to google two letter word.
Load - capacitance and resistance respectively.
 

dr0ss

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Your CD player also loose strength on the laser beam and adds mechanical distortion with time and people didn't hear it.
You don't hear degradation in a CD player (at least until it ceases to play altogether) because of the error correction; once decoded, the digital signal output is 100% correct, even if the laser has started to degrade and miss some stuff.

Given how quickly the vinyl apparently seems to wear out the diamond, I'm starting to think manufacturers should explore making styluses out of some more durable material, like the stone the Romans used to build roads.
 

mike70

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You don't hear degradation in a CD player (at least until it ceases to play altogether) because of the error correction; once decoded, the digital signal output is 100% correct, even if the laser has started to degrade and miss some stuff.

Given how quickly the vinyl apparently seems to wear out the diamond, I'm starting to think manufacturers should explore making styluses out of some more durable material, like the stone the Romans used to build roads.

don't forget the time domain ... error correction have limits, after that, if you miss some data ... that is not equals to the source.

a line contact stylus have years of lifespan, compare that when you only have had conicals / elliptical stylus with 300 - 500 hours lifespan (max) using them for 5-10 years ... without any cleaning!!!! OMG, that generates groove damage, IGD, covid, flu ... :)

And sometimes people with THAT experience normally talks about vinyl :-( (very badly obviously)
 

Mart68

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don't forget the time domain ... error correction have limits, after that, if you miss some data ... that is not equals to the source.

a line contact stylus have years of lifespan, compare that when you only have had conicals / elliptical stylus with 300 - 500 hours lifespan (max) using them for 5-10 years ... without any cleaning!!!! OMG, that generates groove damage, IGD, covid, flu ... :)

And sometimes people with THAT experience normally talks about vinyl :-( (very badly obviously)
Like your talking about CD very badly? If error correction fails you get a skip or a drop out.

IME over 30 plus years fine lines don't last any longer than any other profile - as said by JP above they are consistent then fall off a cliff.
 

Angsty

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Vinyl is a mechanical friction process, so any material will wear out. Diamond styli were an "innovation" over the sapphire styli used before that. 1000 hours is a best case for a diamond stylus in most environments. So, if you think the ROI for a US$1000 cartridge to only last 1000 hours is not sufficient, get a cheaper cartridge (preferably one with a user replaceable stylus). AT, Ortofon and Nagaoka have user-replaceable styli products that meet a number of price points, especially under US$1000. Re-tipping my $750 Hana SL with VAS cost me ~$250 and 4 weeks in 2020.
 

Digby

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Is there a technical reason why MC cartridges don't have a replaceable stylus?
 
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