Where are the Chinese phono cartridges? I'm tired of snake oil and ridiculous pricing

[JP]

Is there a technical reason why MC cartridges don't have a replaceable stylus?

Moving coil: the coil is attached to the cantilever.

 

[mike70]

don't last any longer than any other profile

mmm ... ok, everyone believe in what they want to believe ... even against data.

 

[DVDdoug]

Moving coil: the coil is attached to the cantilever.

The Ortofon website shows a picture. The magnet (or moving iron) is attached too but it's obviously cheaper and you don't have to disconnect/re-connect any electrical connections when changing it.

 

[JP]

IME over 30 plus years fine lines don't last any longer than any other profile - as said by JP above they are consistent then fall off a cliff.

You misinterpreted what I said. Lifespan increases as the profile becomes more advanced, with line contacts being the most resilient due to the "fin" design.

 

[Tom C]

The Ortofon website shows a picture. The magnet (or moving iron) is attached too but it's obviously cheaper and you don't have to disconnect/re-connect any electrical connections when changing it.

I get a 404 error when clicking that link.

 

[Angsty]

MM/MI cartridges are much simpler in design; a small magnet or iron is what moves in a coil gap. MC has a coil attached to the cantilever; it has very fine wire and is very delicate. It is not easily removed and realigned.

See the article in this issue of Audio magazine for more detail; I just read it last week.

https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Audio/Archive-Audio/80s/Audio-1982-03.pdf

 

[Mart68]

mmm ... ok, everyone believe in what they want to believe ... even against data.

what data? it better not be from the manufacturers. Unless it is Nagaoka who are about the only ones who are honest about stylus life.

But if there is reliable data then I will hold my hands up.

 

[killdozzer]

Is there a technical reason why MC cartridges don't have a replaceable stylus?

Some used to have, but it was rather silly. Almost like replacing the entire cart. Removing the stylus would leave you with a small piece of plastic attached to the headshell with absolutely nothing inside:

 

[USER]

Re-tipping my $750 Hana SL with VAS cost me ~$250 and 4 weeks in 2020.

I'd love to do before and after re-tipping measurements one day to see if it a stylus can actually be restored.

 

[mike70]

what data? it better not be from the manufacturers. Unless it is Nagaoka who are about the only ones who are honest about stylus life.

But if there is reliable data then I will hold my hands up.

nagaoka have only line contact stylus in one cartridge (the mp500) ... all the other cartridges are elliptical .. and they don't have shibata or microline models.
so, what they say is true, because their line is almost totally elliptical

line contact stylus have much more area in contact with the groove, with better tracking and less pressure by area unit, with less wear.
people, we're in a science forum ... if you don't want to believe to the 1000 hours from AT / Ortofono, is ok, but line contact it isn't the same as elliptical.

shibata, as an example, was created to read 45Khz frequencies in CD-4 vinyl records, an elliptical stylus cannot dream to track that grooves.

 

[killdozzer]

@Tom C @DVDdoug

 

[Angsty]

what data? it better not be from the manufacturers. Unless it is Nagaoka who are about the only ones who are honest about stylus life.

But if there is reliable data then I will hold my hands up.

Here is another article on stylus life.

The Finish Line for Your Phonograph Stylus… - The Vinyl Press

Examining the critical issue of phono stylus wear as it pertains to useful life and the potential for damage to records.

thevinylpress.com

 

[dr0ss]

don't forget the time domain ... error correction have limits, after that, if you miss some data ... that is not equals to the source.

As Mart68 points out, if an error in a CD doesn't correct you'll get dropouts, which don't require golden ears to hear. If sound from a CD player is gradually deteriorating, it is certainly from the analogue end of the player.

Back when lasers were expensive and CD players went out of alignment the day after the warranty expired I used to think that this was the advantage of LPs, that they weren't so delicate and pricey to maintain. Now I'm not so sure.

 

[Mart68]

nagaoka have only line contact stylus in one cartridge (the mp500) ... all the other cartridges are elliptical .. and they don't have shibata or microline models.
so, what they say is true, because their line is almost totally elliptical

line contact stylus have much more area in contact with the groove, with better tracking and less pressure by area unit, with less wear.
people, we're in a science forum ... if you don't want to believe to the 1000 hours from AT / Ortofono, is ok, but line contact it isn't the same as elliptical.

shibata, as an example, was created to read 45Khz frequencies in CD-4 vinyl records, an elliptical stylus cannot dream to track that grooves.

So no data then? I've had the whole Nagaoka range over the years and still have an MP500 and an MP110. The MP500 did not last any longer, at least not appreciably. Nagaoka do not claim it will last longer than their other tips either.

 

[mike70]

So no data then? I've had the whole Nagaoka range over the years and still have an MP500 and an MP110. The MP500 did not last any longer, at least not appreciably. Nagaoka do not claim it will last longer than their other tips either.

So, you must be right

 

[Mart68]

So, you must be right

No but you will need to show data to make me change my mind. Stories don't count as data.

 

[mike70]

Sumiko is other brand that goes into the AT / Ortofon recommendation

https://sumikophonocartridges.com/turntable-stylus/

Surely is very hard to make a "closed" recomendation, because alignment, VTF, cleaning, antiskating, etc etc ... there're many factors that affects the stylus lifespan ... and also different standards. From what i know, Nagaoka numbers comes from a 3% deviation at 15Khz. That's "ironly" secure, but maybe a little extreme if you take good care about your analog system.

What i do? i replace my microline styluses every 2 years, based on my vinyl listening habits ... that's between 800 - 1000 hours. When i use the replacement i cannot hear any difference.

that's a "good method" ... buy the replacement and test it changing the stylus at 500, 700, ... hours and check it out. Or do it at 500 hours anyway, we can't discuss that a safest condition ... is a safest condition.

So, is not to start a "flame war" with this, is best to share our experiences and enjoy our hobby.

 

[restorer-john]

As Mart68 points out, if an error in a CD doesn't correct you'll get dropouts, which don't require golden ears to hear. If sound from a CD player is gradually deteriorating, it is certainly from the analogue end of the player.

This is just totally incorrect.

Error correction is either mathematically perfect or not. If the burst errors cannot be completely corrected, the device moves to linear interpolation. Interpolation can range from completely inaudible (most of the time), to somewhat imperfect. Many CD interpolation algorithms also HPF during interpolation to reduce audible HF glitches.

Once you hear dropouts, you are well past error correction and interpolation and into the ramp up/down muting which has been present in the CD format since day one.

The analogue stages of CD players have been pretty much beyond reproach from 1982.

 

[mike70]

This is just totally incorrect.

Error correction is either mathematically perfect or not. If the burst errors cannot be completely corrected, the device moves to linear interpolation. Interpolation can range from completely inaudible (most of the time), to somewhat imperfect. Many CD interpolation algorithms also HPF during interpolation to reduce audible HF glitches.

Once you hear dropouts, you are well past error correction and interpolation and into the ramp up/down muting which has been present in the CD format since day one.

The analogue stages of CD players have been pretty much beyond reproach from 1982.

I'm TI engineer and I studied data communication and error correction... I agree 100% with you, but I don't wanted to discuss profoundly to generate bad situations. As I said before, everyone have the right to believe what they want.

 

[mhardy6647]

Some used to have, but it was rather silly. Almost like replacing the entire cart. Removing the stylus would leave you with a small piece of plastic attached to the headshell with absolutely nothing inside:

there is or are magnet(s) in there...