Where are the Chinese phono cartridges? I'm tired of snake oil and ridiculous pricing

[anmpr1]

There's a couple of issues:

1) For best groove tracing (and hence lower distortion) a more svelt diamond profile is no doubt going to be superior.

2) For basic cost, price is going to be higher as the grind becomes more contoured. Or at least it should be.

And although distortion is generally lower with a more sophisticated cut, not everything is equal among like designs. For example, in David Rich's analysis of the Sumiko Celebration cartridge he found:

IM between 200 Hz and 2.1 kHz is 2% for the Celebration 40. The value is referenced to the larger 2.1 kHz tone. This is more than twice the best-performing cartridges with a Microridge stylus.

The IM spurs around 17 kHz are referenced to the larger 2.1 kHz tone. The result is 6%. Now we are 3X the best performing cartridges with a Microridge stylus.

At the same time the listener's subjective impression was not particularly negative, and in fact was positive. I have a Denon DL103, which has to be one of the more retro cartridges out there (ball point pen diamond/low compliance), and switching from it to the A/T VM740ML is like raising the shade on the window during a sunny day, in terms of difference. But from a subjective standpoint, with my eyes closed, as it were, the antique Denon design sounds fine, and in some ways (but not others) I like it more.

 

[anmpr1]

I think price rises is a common thing in the last years (including before covid / war with the obvious market stress) ... tell me about any hifi niche where it doesn't.

On the hardware end it's a mixed inflationary bag. Usually, with high demand, low supply, and given a general monetary expansion, one can expect rising prices. Certainly this is the case with phono cartridges, although I have no idea which factor among those cited is the main culprit.

On the other hand, I note how in spite of a general inflation, and even with high demand/production backlogs, the price of the AHB2 amplifier has remained the same over the past several years. I'm using that as one example I'm familiar with, to contrast it with the Denon cartridges which I'm also familiar with.

Also, from a strictly 'tech' standpoint, there are 'anti-inflationary' factors that result in not only lower priced products than hitherto, but better performing gear. For example, the world of DACs, where for a small price one can easily buy something that is much better in performance than what went before, at a much lower cost.

 

[Godataloss]

20 to 30 hours a week of use. Records all properly cleaned on Moth MK2. Styli don't last anything like 2000 hours regardless of type.
people who only play records one or two hours a week might get that impression I suppose. But it's wrong.

Look at what Nagaoka themselves say. They are possibly the only manufacturer that is honest about stylus life. A worn tip will start damaging records long before you hear that it is on its way out.

Get an ultrasonic. You should see the crap I get off my friend's vac-cleaned records. I easily got 2k hours on my last cart and switched more out of boredom than necessity.

 

[sergeauckland]

Also, from a strictly 'tech' standpoint, there are 'anti-inflationary' factors that result in not only lower priced products than hitherto, but better performing gear. For example, the world of DACs, where for a small price one can easily buy something that is much better in performance than what went before, at a much lower cost.

If one's been around as long as I have, you may remember electronics made in the 1950s, where labour was relatively cheap and components relatively expensive. If you look at the effort manufacturers went to in terms of wiring and switching, all hand soldered and cabled, just to avoid using an extra valve, then it's clear just how the balance between labour and component costs have changed.

Cartridges are essentially mechanical items that have to be largely hand-assembled, and therefore incur labour costs. DACs are essentially pure electronics, which benefit from automated assembly, and therefore have much lower labour costs.

To put it crudely, people cost, stuff doesn't. I don't see cartridges, or indeed any low quantity precision mechanical items getting relatively cheaper.

S.

 

[Mart68]

Get an ultrasonic. You should see the crap I get off my friend's vac-cleaned records. I easily got 2k hours on my last cart and switched more out of boredom than necessity.

I can appreciate an ultrasonic is better but they didn't exist back when I bought the Moth - okay they probably did but they were not affordable like they are now.

Irrelevant to me now anyway as I don't play my records any more and will eventually get around to selling most of them.

Do you know for a fact that you got 2000 plus hours? Did you keep an meticulous record of playing time or is that just an estimate?

If you did keep a record, might I ask what cartridge it was?

 

[anmpr1]

...you may remember electronics made in the 1950s, where labour was relatively cheap and components relatively expensive. If you look at the effort manufacturers went to in terms of wiring and switching, all hand soldered and cabled, just to avoid using an extra valve, then it's clear just how the balance between labour and component costs have changed.

It's why in the mid to late '50s through early '70s it was always cheaper to buy the kit, than the assembled product. Someone had to solder and wire all those parts, and doing it in your living room was always cheaper than paying a skilled factory worker to do it.

Now, even if they sent you a bag of parts, how the heck could you assemble an AHB2 on your kitchen table?

 

[Mart68]

Now, even if they sent you a bag of parts, how the heck could you assemble an AHB2 on your kitchen table?

I know people who would have a go at it

 

[anmpr1]

I know people who would have a go at it

 

[mike70]

There's a couple of issues:

1) For best groove tracing (and hence lower distortion) a more svelt diamond profile is no doubt going to be superior.

2) For basic cost, price is going to be higher as the grind becomes more contoured. Or at least it should be.

And although distortion is generally lower with a more sophisticated cut, not everything is equal among like designs. For example, in David Rich's analysis of the Sumiko Celebration cartridge he found:

IM between 200 Hz and 2.1 kHz is 2% for the Celebration 40. The value is referenced to the larger 2.1 kHz tone. This is more than twice the best-performing cartridges with a Microridge stylus.

The IM spurs around 17 kHz are referenced to the larger 2.1 kHz tone. The result is 6%. Now we are 3X the best performing cartridges with a Microridge stylus.

At the same time the listener's subjective impression was not particularly negative, and in fact was positive. I have a Denon DL103, which has to be one of the more retro cartridges out there (ball point pen diamond/low compliance), and switching from it to the A/T VM740ML is like raising the shade on the window during a sunny day, in terms of difference. But from a subjective standpoint, with my eyes closed, as it were, the antique Denon design sounds fine, and in some ways (but not others) I like it more.

it's ok ... the cartridge engine and cantilever / body material counts, but one undeniable factor on advanced stylus profile is ... lifespan. If you change the stylus (or trade-in the cartridge with an MC) annually or once in 2-3 years ... it's a great difference.

 

[anmpr1]

If you change the stylus (or trade-in the cartridge with an MC) annually or once in 2-3 years ... it's a great difference.

Denon used to offer a trade-in allowance. Maybe half to 1/3 price discount. I took advantage of it through my dealer (in the days of dealers) and that made owning the brand less onerous. But last I checked they don't offer it anymore. So the consumer is left with spending four to five hundred dollars for a one shot deal? Or possibly take a chance on a third party retip 'solution'?

I believe Ortofon and others still offer a trade in allowance. I'd never buy another Denon cartridge, because of this lack of consumer orientation and support.

 

[Godataloss]

I can appreciate an ultrasonic is better but they didn't exist back when I bought the Moth - okay they probably did but they were not affordable like they are now.

Irrelevant to me now anyway as I don't play my records any more and will eventually get around to selling most of them.

Do you know for a fact that you got 2000 plus hours? Did you keep an meticulous record of playing time or is that just an estimate?

If you did keep a record, might I ask what cartridge it was?

I didn't keep meticulous records, but I am meticulous about cleaning my records. Perhaps it is my lack of preconceived expectations of failure that explains the longevity. The cart is an Ortofon Black and I ran it for four and a half years. 2,000 hours would be a conservative estimate. That's less than 40 hours a month. My turntable gets almost daily use and during covid it was not unusual for my wife and I to play records all day for several days in a week. The reason for a new cart was spurned more because I got a new phono preamp with moving coil capability than because I noticed any degradation of the sound. In fact, I'm very much considering going back to the Black. The extraordinarily high output made for a very addicting noise floor.

 

[Mart68]

I didn't keep meticulous records, but I am meticulous about cleaning my records. Perhaps it is my lack of preconceived expectations of failure that explains the longevity. The cart is an Ortofon Black and I ran it for four and a half years. 2,000 hours would be a conservative estimate. That's less than 40 hours a month. My turntable gets almost daily use and during covid it was not unusual for my wife and I to play records all day for several days in a week. The reason for a new cart was spurned more because I got a new phono preamp with moving coil capability than because I noticed any degradation of the sound. In fact, I'm very much considering going back to the Black. The extraordinarily high output made for a very addicting noise floor.

Fair enough, it sounds like you can be fairly confident of the hours on it. As you say it must be due to the ultra-clean records.

I suppose it is possible that hearing stylus wear could be expectation bias, at least on occasion. Interesting idea.

 

[Digby]

The reason for a new cart was spurned more because I got a new phono preamp with moving coil capability than because I noticed any degradation of the sound.

How do you know for sure, if you didn't digitally record both the old and new stylus and compare side by side?

I did read something about advanced stylii not becoming audibly much different, until they are very worn (and potentially damaging the record), can't remember where this was though...

 

[muskrat]

AT says 300 hrs for an elliptical, twice that for a conical. Longer life for micro line stylus is because they retain their side profile as they wear until the tip reaches the bottom of the groove. This is not true for shibata stylus which, oddly, cost more for AT carts. The 300 hr life for ellipticals is suspect though. They do sell stylus after all.

 

[Tom C]

This is the one that the budget-minded vinylista get all a-twitter about.
Here's 57 pages of rhapsodizing about it.

$11 Chinese AT3600L Thread Mk. II - Champagne sound on a Beer budget!

After the previous thread met an unfortunate demise, I figured it would be a waste to let all the info just vanish completely. Champagne Sound for Beer Money? Huh? For those of you that don't already know, it's possible to source an Audio-Technica AT3600L 1/2" mount cartridge with a .6 mil...

audiokarma.org

The tactics described in the folk tales Stone Soup and Nail Broth are also in evidence. One will note examples of folks tarting up their $11 USD cartridge with much more expensive styli.

Direct from LP record, warm crackle and all.

Disclosures:
1) Umm, yeah, I have one of these cartridges. "NIB" -- I've yet to have the urge to try it.
2) I love that Danny Kaye album. An aunt & uncle gave me a copy a long, long, long time ago. The stories are burned into my autonomic nervous system.

I love Danny Kaye.

 

[Tom C]

Check out the Stereophile article about a company in China, DYLP Audio. Hand made and fairly expensive but not into the vinyl thing so can't remark on their value. Mikey loves them tho... They sent him 3 carts, A $1200, a $350 and a $325 cart but these are purportedly at the bottom of their price range. One of their carts sells for $2899. In the April issue.

Really, if it’s from Fremmer, it’s not important.

 

[Phorize]

I don't understand the complaint. The snake oil and excessive prices are a feature not a bug.
What would be left of the vinyl fad without the aura and snob-appeal of an expensive hobby? Inconvenience and below SOTA SQ.

Granted it’s a fad for most younger people, but many of us who bought in when it was a mainstream source still appreciate large physical media with pictures and writing, notwithstanding the significant trade offs.

 

[Tom C]

He can add he likes, it won't change the experience of cart lifespans. I have five audio buddies all analogue first guys, all with expensive tasts in line contact stylus, none of them have ever gotten over 1200 hours out of a cart. 3 of the 5 record their playing hours.

We don’t generally take this sort of thing as substantive support of an assertion

 

[mike70]

AT says 300 hrs for an elliptical, twice that for a conical. Longer life for micro line stylus is because they retain their side profile as they wear until the tip reaches the bottom of the groove. This is not true for shibata stylus which, oddly, cost more for AT carts. The 300 hr life for ellipticals is suspect though. They do sell stylus after all.

Also remember that more contact area with the groove means less pressure at the same VTF ... so less wear on diamond.

Microline have something as 2x contact area than an elliptical.

 

[mike70]

Granted it’s a fad for most younger people, but many of us who bought in when it was a mainstream source still appreciate large physical media with pictures and writing, notwithstanding the significant trade offs.

I think it doesn't matter ... do you enjoy vinyl as I do? Then enjoy it.

Other people don't? Listen to digital exclusively.. that's all.

Enjoy music, some people is happy with FM radios. Is not the media, is the emotion what made us human beans.