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When is an electrical engineer not an engineer?

Shadrach

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You are conflating educational attainment with competence.
I don't think I am. I have mentioned in earlier posts that there are good and not so good in any profession.
There are an abundance of terms to describe the various engineering disciplines. My arguement is not about competency at it's root; it's about titles and standards.
To advertise/call yourself a lawyer, doctor, vet, architect etc one needs to reach a particular standard. Why should this be any different for an Engineer?
Such standards are governed by an institution usually. Why should it be any different for Engineers?
The merits/rewards of belonging to such institutions vary greatly often depending on what work one is involved in.
Other than the above I agree in general with the points you make.
 

SIY

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Such standards are governed by an institution usually. Why should it be any different for Engineers?

I'd ask the question in reverse.

I evaluate competence not by pieces of paper on the wall with embossed seals but by knowledge and accomplishment. If as a potential client I choose to use a certification as a substitute for that, cool, my choice. But having that cartel permission slip as a legal requirement to do work for willing parties.... that's absolutely wrong, IMO. And potentially a threat to my living, despite over 40 years of successful work in both science and engineering.
 

digicidal

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The problem I see, whether it's a governmental regulatory body or a professional one is that there is rarely any actual mechanism in place to hold them accountable for not serving the purpose for which they were conceived in the first place. Regulation is useful only when it is actually performing that task... which IME at least it rarely does. In fact, most of the time there is appreciable action taken... it's to cover their own asses and get out of paying for their own mistakes.

Obviously, there's no way for a licensing body to follow licensee's to every job, nor truly test for every competency, etc. - however, in every case they naturally increase the cost of hiring/contracting licensees (passed on cost-of-entry) but rarely provides real assurances to the one's ultimately footing the bill. Whether it's the numerous "professional organizations" which do nothing at all (or are outright frauds), or the real regulatory agencies which are at least doing something on paper... often the results are difficult to distinguish from nothing.

Since the GFC was brought up... the FTC, SEC, OTS and an alphabet soup of other agencies world-wide (not to mention the credit rating agencies, which were a primary contributor) not only dropped the ball repeatedly, but arguably facilitated a much worse result than might have existed without them. After all, people are easily lulled into a false sense of security once they are told that "someone else is making sure everything is correct" and they stop doing their own due diligence in their personal and business dealings. The SEC was definitely instrumental in making Madoff as successful as he was - as without their "endorsement" (in the form of not investigating nearly a decade of complaints) he would have been questioned more strongly by many.

Financial Crisis Inquiry Comission Report - Conclusion excerpt said:
Yet we do not accept the view that regulators lacked the power to protect the financial system. They had ample power in many arenas and they chose not to use it. To give just three examples: the Securities and Exchange Commission could have required more capital and halted risky practices at the big investment banks. It did not. The Federal Reserve Bank of New York and other regulators could have clamped down on Citigroup’s excesses in the run-up to the crisis. They did not. Policy makers and regulators could have stopped the runaway mortgage securitization train. They did not. In case after case after case, regulators continued to rate the institutions they oversaw as safe and sound even in the face of mounting troubles, often downgrading them just before their collapse. And where regulators lacked authority, they could have sought it.
 

sergeauckland

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I have an honours degree in electronics but no specific engineering qualification. Nevertheless, I was employed as a Design Engineer for several years before transferring to a commercial activity. I was part of the IEE in the UK, but resigned in protest in the early 1970s when they proposed becoming affiliated to the Trades Union Congress, and therefore effectively becoming a trade union rather than a professional association. My lack of a formal engineering qualification or affiliation never affected my career, indeed, not one employer has ever asked for documentary evidence that I even had the degree I claimed.

It does seem more onerous being an electrician or plumber in the UK in terms of paper qualifications than an Engineer.

S
 
OP
Berwhale

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It does seem more onerous being an electrician or plumber in the UK in terms of paper qualifications than an Engineer.

I feel certain that I'll be unable to change a light bulb without a Part P certification at some point in my life...
 
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amirm

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The current trend to call anyone who has any technical knowledge (some it seems don't even need that) an engineer, devalues the discipline overall.
That is the case but now they are saying even if you are a proper engineer with a degree and work experience, you are still not an engineer until you pass a useless test and pay yearly dues. That makes no sense.
 

Wes

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Oh no - it makes perfect sense. You are thinking about it form the standpoint of an engineer. Instead, think about it from the standpoint of the recipient of the fees...
 

MusicNBeer

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I personally hate the 4 year BSEE or higher litmus test. I know many MSEEs that are just poor engineers. Weak problem solving skills, zero statistical knowledge, etc. At the same time, two of the best engineers I know don't have the title due to lack of BSEE. One of these two is genius level and has immeasurable value to our company.
 

amirm

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For the most part, universities are obsoleted by online training. The other night Youtube suggested a video on Maxwell equations to me. I watched it and it was a million times better than the way I was taught years back. And I know I won't forget this version as I did the version I learned in school. :)
 

NTomokawa

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For the most part, universities are obsoleted by online training.
That may be, but my opinion is that self-learned "engineers" still need to pass the same certification exam as any other engineering undergraduate/graduate.

Of course the established "old guard" of engineers are going to fight tooth and nail to prevent changing the certification exam eligibility. How dare you let some person who watched some Khan Academy videos take the same exam as us and be called an engineer!
 

amirm

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That may be, but my opinion is that self-learned "engineers" still need to pass the same certification exam as any other engineering undergraduate/graduate.
There is no examination when you finish 4 year engineering degree. You finish your courses and you are an engineer. We then hire them in the industry, and teach them what they really need to know. Everything I needed to do my first job out of engineering school was what I had learned on my own (computers/programming) and what I taught myself on the job, and what I learned from my peers. Yes, occasionally I use what I was taught in school but as I mentioned, the tools and level of training online is incredible.
 

NTomokawa

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There is no examination when you finish 4 year engineering degree.
Are you allowed to sign off documents using "Ing." or "P. Ing." without being certified/being part of an order of engineers?

Because my jurisdiction (the Province of Quebec) doesn't allow that. But of course, this must vary from one jurisdiction to another.
 

amirm

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Are you allowed to sign off documents using "Ing." or "P. Ing." without being certified/being part of an order of engineers?
We do have Professional Engineers (PE) that go through such exams and such. The problem and topic of this thread is that the rest of us " regular engineers" are getting thrown into that pool.
 

NTomokawa

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We do have Professional Engineers (PE) that go through such exams and such. The problem and topic of this thread is that the rest of us " regular engineers" are getting thrown into that pool.
I see now. I guess it's just extra strict where I am. If you're not part of the Order, you don't get to call yourself an "engineer", period.

http://gpp.oiq.qc.ca/start.htm#usage_du_titre.htm (French only!)

Conformément à la Loi sur les ingénieurs, on n’utilisera des termes descriptifs comprenant le mot « ingénieur » que si le porteur est inscrit à ce titre au tableau de l’Ordre des ingénieurs du Québec.

As per the Law on Engineers, a descriptive term containing the word "engineer" can only be used by a person registered with the Quebec Order of Engineers.

Toute personne qui, sans être membre de l’Ordre des ingénieurs du Québec, utilise l'un de ces termes s’expose à une poursuite pénale, en vertu de l’article 22 de la Loi ainsi que des articles 32 et 188.1 du Code des professions.

Any person who uses one of these terms without being a member of the Quebec Order of Engineers is liable to be legally prosecuted under Article 22 of the Law as well as Articles 32 and 188.1 of the [Quebec] Code of Professions.
 

NTK

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That's why the Oregon case I mentioned in post #17 is such a happy win for reason and common sense.
https://reason.com/2019/01/02/judge-confirms-that-oregon-engineer-has/
https://www.oregonlive.com/news/201...-who-is-an-engineer-violates-free-speech.html

The US federal judge ruled that the Oregon state law dictating who can describe her/himself as an engineer to be unconstitutional because it violates the free speech (first amendment) right. The Oregon state government is now permanently prohibited from enforcing this rule. I may be wrong as I am not a lawyer, but since it is a US federal case, I think (and hope) this case may set a legal precedent for the other states to follow.

I'd have to say, even though I myself have a PE license for 20+ years (which I have never used other than putting it in my resume), a big reason for licensing, IMO, is to set up barriers of entry to exclude others and reduce competition for licensed PE's. It is not just for the financial benefit of the licensing boards. The two parties work together.
 

Shadrach

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To advertise/call yourself a lawyer, doctor, vet, architect etc one needs to reach a particular standard. Why should this be any different for an Engineer?
Such standards are governed by an institution usually. Why should it be any different for Engineers?
.
Nobody seems to (except Berwhale) wants to address these questions.
It would seem that for other professions most expect a standard that is officially recognised but for engineers no accepted standard is fine.
When is an electrical engineer not an engineer?
When he/she doesn't have an institute membership just like any other profession.
 
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Shadrach

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That is the case but now they are saying even if you are a proper engineer with a degree and work experience, you are still not an engineer until you pass a useless test and pay yearly dues. That makes no sense.
It's the same for most professions. If it doesn't make sense for engineers then it doesn't make sense for other professions either.
 
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