When is an electrical engineer not an engineer?

[Berwhale]

When Arizona's state regulators decide to play word games
Professional licensing rules collide with common parlance, again

Article: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/...rical_engineer_cant_call_himself_an_engineer/

There are quite a few EE's on here, i'd be interested hear your views on the above article.

Personally, i've had many roles in IT where i've been called an Engineer, i've even held the title of 'VP & Chief Engineer', but the only qualification i've obtained with Engineer in the name is Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer - this was in 1996 when Windows NT 3.51 & Windows 95 the MS OSes de jour.

 

[SIY]

When you go to the website of the NSPE, the entire focus is exactly this- using money collected from member to lobby government for anyone trying to work as an engineer to... pay them money. Everything is about licensing, all of which involves payments to NSPE and their cronies. Cartels, barriers to entry, rent-seeking, the whole deal.

It's disgusting, and using the government as the at-the-point-of-a-gun enforcer is hideously immoral.

 

[JJB70]

When Arizona's state regulators decide to play word games
Professional licensing rules collide with common parlance, again

Article: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/...rical_engineer_cant_call_himself_an_engineer/

There are quite a few EE's on here, i'd be interested hear your views on the above article.

Personally, i've had many roles in IT where i've been called an Engineer, i've even held the title of 'VP & Chief Engineer', but the only qualification i've obtained with Engineer in the name is Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer - this was in 1996 when Windows NT 3.51 & Windows 95 the MS OSes de jour.

This is always a good argument to wind engineers up.

In the UK the term "engineer" is not protected, but the engineering council does register people in various capacities for which the titles are controlled. So a Chartered Engineer (CEng) Incorporated Engineer (IEng) and Engineering Technician (TEng) must be registered with ECUK as such to use these titles (although the TEng one can be problematic and that matches the normal use of technician). Our Ceng is equivalent to PEng in many other countries, IEng is equivalent to engineering technologist, but unlike many other countries there is no state licensing of engineers which requires CEng (or IEng) status to do certain roles (although there may be other certification requirements). Outside of these protected titles anyone can call themselves an engineer here.

Some engineers get really irate about it and see it as a big issue and point of pride, others aren't really bothered. I'm a CEng, and started out wearing overalls and working on engines, and I honestly don't get worked up about it.

 

[JJB70]

When you go to the website of the NSPE, the entire focus is exactly this- using money collected from member to lobby government for anyone trying to work as an engineer to... pay them money. Everything is about licensing, all of which involves payments to NSPE and their cronies. Cartels, barriers to entry, rent-seeking, the whole deal.

It's disgusting, and using the government as the at-the-point-of-a-gun enforcer is hideously immoral.

I think it is proper that there are certification requirements for many engineering roles. For example, at sea I had a chief engineer certificate of competency (license) to sail as a chief engineer. I wank to be confident aero engine mechanics and engineers know what they're doing when I fly. However, registration as CEng (or PEng in the US) tells you nothing about a persons competence for a particular role and I don't see such registration as a pre-requisite to perform a role. Therefore, I must admit, even as someone who spends the money to maintain my registration and as a fellow ot two professional institutions I'm not in favour of mandating registration and to be honest see it as more of a vanity thing and CV enhancer (I'll plead guilty on both counts).

 

[Berwhale]

This is always a good argument to wind engineers up.

In the UK the term "engineer" is not protected, but the engineering council does register people in various capacities for which the titles are controlled. So a Chartered Engineer (CEng) Incorporated Engineer (IEng) and Engineering Technician (TEng) must be registered with ECUK as such to use these titles (although the TEng one can be problematic and that matches the normal use of technician). Our Ceng is equivalent to PEng in many other countries, IEng is equivalent to engineering technologist, but unlike many other countries there is no state licensing of engineers which requires CEng (or IEng) status to do certain roles (although there may be other certification requirements). Outside of these protected titles anyone can call themselves an engineer here.

Some engineers get really irate about it and see it as a big issue and point of pride, others aren't really bothered. I'm a CEng, and started out wearing overalls and working on engines, and I honestly don't get worked up about it.

Yes, i'm aware of the distinction in the UK, my father was CEng MIStructE (and FIStructE later). This is one reason why i've always felt a little uncomfortable with the slapdash use of 'Engineer' in IT world. I also realized that this could be a somewhat contentious topic, it's not my intention to start an argument!

 

[SIY]

. I wank to be confident aero engine mechanics and engineers know what they're doing when I fly.

Clearly, you're more invested than I am!

On a serious note, the very best EEs I know (and I know some particularly excellent ones) have exactly zero PE "certifications." Part of my job role is managing the engineering department at my employer. Should I be in legal jeopardy for doing my job competently but not paying tribute to NSPE?

 

[DonH56]

I took the EIT and debated many times about getting a PE as some areas (states, you can probably guess at least one ) required it to do consulting. Ultimately I never did it. Having the license opens you up for greater liability, and some of the fees were outrageous (not to mention all the paperwork added to every contract). I did a fair amount of consulting for a while and nobody asked me for a PE. For civil engineers it was pretty much required since they worked on so many gov't jobs. I did take the word "engineer" out of the name of my little consulting business just to avoid the hassle.

Like @SIY, of all the electrical (and a few other) engineers I have known or known of over the decades, I can think of maybe one or two that had a PE, mainly because their state forced them to have one to consult.

IME, in the industry, companies classify you as an engineer if you have a college degree (BSEE or whatever; Asc did not meet the criteria at most companies I have worked/seen). Some techs are better engineers than some degreed engineers, natch, but often lack the breadth of a good degreed engineer (e.g. know how a filter works but can't do Laplace analysis of it). I know a number of techs who eventually got their BS degrees just to avoid the stigma and to open up the corporate coffers. And a few engineers who should have stayed in school a little longer, or learned a little more about the real world. But a PE was never a requirement to be a practicing (electrical or mechanical) engineer at any company IME.

 

[RayDunzl]

Eventually my business cards said "Engineer".

I considered it an honorary title, and didn't complain.

Given the nature and qualtiy of work performed, it was never an issue.

Except once, where I had to be an Engineer, and work directly with Engineers, and report to an Engineer (from India, no less, can't remember his name), and it really sucked.

Worked for NEC, we put machines into the labs for WilTel in The Woodlands, They offered me a job after a while, doing what I was already doing, tending the NEC lab machines, interfacing with the Network Management Software group (they were wasting money building mainframes out of NeXT pizza boxes. One guy had to write the entire TCP/IP stack from scratch to make them all talk to themselves)

WorldCom bought WilTel, then after a year or two the Tulsa-based (actually Owasso, Oklahoma*) tentacles reached into the Advanced Technology Group where I had a nice floor-to-ceiling shaded windowed corner cubicle right next to the door that overlooked the pond and garden and my parking space:

Ray?
Yeah?
Need you in Tulsa Monday.
Why?
Because you report to me now.
I do?
Yes.
Hmm... Ok.
-Takes earliest Monday morning flight to Tulsa, drives to Owasso. Finds the place.
I'm here.
You're late. The meeting is over.
Uh, yeah.
Do this shit work.
Ok.
Fly back Friday evening,
Repeat for too many weeks.
Call NEC in Dallas.
Hey Phil.
You ready to come home?
Yeah.
Ok, I'll start the paperwork.

*Owasso is an Osage Indian word meaning "Turn Around" or "End of the Trail." The "End of the Trail" painting is our official symbol or logo of Owasso.

https://earth.google.com/web/@36.25...50882993d,35y,179.94836258h,70.09531227t,360r

Not long after that WorldCom folded up in an accounting scandal.

Bernie is still in jail.

Name: BERNARD J EBBERS
Register Number: 56022-054
Age: 78
Race: White
Sex: Male
Release Date: 07/04/2028
Located At: FMC Fort Worth

 

[Shadrach]

You didn't get a choice when I was working. If you weren't registered with the relevant institute you didn't get the work.
It did to some extent guard against some levels of incompetency because you needed to submit your degree and at that time have some level of experience in that field and a sponsor.
Oddly, I wasn't an engineer at all. I had no engineering components in either of my degrees.

 

[Pluto]

I wank to be confident

 

[JJB70]

Clearly, you're more invested than I am!

On a serious note, the very best EEs I know (and I know some particularly excellent ones) have exactly zero PE "certifications." Part of my job role is managing the engineering department at my employer. Should I be in legal jeopardy for doing my job competently but not paying tribute to NSPE?

No, I don't think professional registration should be mandatory, and in the UK only a minority of engineers register with ECUK and registration is not required to work in any capacity.

I think two things are often conflated, professional registration and competency to perform a role. Competency to perform a role requires certain skills and knowledge, it may not be necessary to have any formal education to develop the necessary skills and knowledge. In the UK competency certification or authorisation is generally managed by employers but in the event of an incident the employer could be asked to demonstrate the basis for their decision to authorise someone for a particular task. If that process is deficient then the company would be liable.

For example, in electricity generation I was a senior authorised person and control person for mechanical systems and electrical systems up to 275KV for the plants I worked at and for cross boundary safety with the transmission system. My authorisations were issued by my employer as part of their compliance with our electricity at work regulations. I did not have to be a registered engineer (and indeed wasn't at the time) but I did have to satisfy the necessary competence requirements and once authorised was legally liable for my decisions. With high voltage you generally don't get second chances if it goes wrong so a robust competency requirement is perfectly sensible.

On the other hand there are plenty of roles for which this is not necessary.

 

[anmpr1]

From the article, it appears he's in trouble pretty much over the name of his business? Knowing how government has sanction power, and knowing how difficult it is to contest regulatory BS if you don't have deep pockets, it would have been better (or at least less hassle) for the guy to have simply changed the name of his firm. Instead of Southwest Engineering Concepts, what about Southwest Electrical Design Associates, or something similar?

Also, it appears his nightmare began after a customer wanted additions made to the original design, but didn't want to pay for the rework. All over a USB capable battery charged mist-spraying umbrella. How absurd is that? Losing one's business over a mist-spraying umbrella?

 

[paddycrow]

The only real engineers are those that drive trains...

j/k

 

[DDF]

There are quite a few EE's on here, i'd be interested hear your views on the above article..

A person Canadian trained can call themselves an engineer by obtaining an engineering degree from a Canadian university and being awarded the iron ring.

Some of the best engineering designers I've worked with in the US had technologist qualifications and some of the worst designers working as engineers had PHDs. If you can do the work, you can do the work.

It's outright fraud like this that needs to be stamped out though.

 

[anmpr1]

The only real engineers are those that drive trains...j/k

Including Lionel? And does anyone know who is in the kitchen with Dinah, and her horn?

 

[Berwhale]

The only real engineers are those that drive trains...j/k

We call them train drivers over here. The US use of Engineer has it's root's in the term 'engineman' according to the Oxford English Dictionary...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-32758223

Incidentally, the lexicographer, Susie Dent is quite well known in the UK for her appearances on a TV show called Countdown: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susie_Dent

 

[NTK]

There was a somewhat similar case in Oregon, and fortunately, reason prevailed -- the Oregon Board lost.
https://reason.com/2019/01/02/judge-confirms-that-oregon-engineer-has/

 

[Frank Dernie]

When I did my apprenticeship here in the UK there were 3 courses.
One led to being an engineer and included qualification to degree or Higher national Diploma.
The second led to being a skilled technician and included the qualification of Higher National Certificate.
The third led to being a craftsman and included study to a Ordinary National Certificate.
Nowadays the qualifications have changed and far more people do a University course not affiliated with an employer (around 7x as many people get a degree today than in 1970)
Whatever qualifications there is a tendency for anybody outside the engineering industry to refer to anybody associated with it as an engineer, whether they are working on a production line or designing a Nuclear Fusion Reactor, so engineer is a pretty meaningless word here IMO.

 

[mansr]

Certifications are, for whatever reasons, very poor predictors of actual skill and competence. If anything, it is a negative indicator. A skilled individual will find work regardless, meaning that those with the greatest incentive to obtain a certification are the mildly incompetent, for whom it may boost their chances with silly companies whose hiring policies require it.

For safety critical things, it makes more sense to mandate inspection/testing of the actual produced object rather than pretending that a person possessing a particular piece of paper is infallible.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Certifications are, for whatever reasons, very poor predictors of actual skill and competence. If anything, it is a negative indicator. A skilled individual will find work regardless, meaning that those with the greatest incentive to obtain a certification are the mildly incompetent, for whom it may boost their chances with silly companies whose hiring policies require it.

For safety critical things, it makes more sense to mandate inspection/testing of the actual produced object rather than pretending that a person possessing a particular piece of paper is infallible.

I tend to agree. One of the best guys who ever worked for me had relatively low qualifications but was a clear thinker and had good original ideas. He went on to be a leader in his field and never needed certification or to look for a job.
I have only once needed my qualifications in applying for my first job, subsequent to that I have been sought out by my next employer and offered a job up until I started my own business.