When is a broken panther justified?

[sergeauckland]

I've felt for some time that there's a disconnect between quality judged on measurements and quality judged by audibility. Just about any product, including the Amazon Basics amp given a broken panther recently, are likely to be audibly transparent in general use.

So, are measurements pointless? No, not at all, they show whether the design is sound, and especially in the case of high priced product, whether there's any technical justification for the high price in terms of better objective performance. They also show whether the item (and therefore the manufacturer) is honest in its specification and of course whether the item being tested is broken.

However, there are so many things that are nowadays far more important than SINAD, which as I said, just about any product at any price can manage >-70dB, when -60dB (0.1%) was and still is, more than is needed for transparency.

For amplifiers, measurement of peak current capability, stability into adverse, especially reactive, loads, shortcircuit protection, clipping behaviour and I'm sure I'll think of some more are, I suggest, more important these days than SINAD.

Is it therefore right to give a broken panther to a product that meets its specification and is adequate for transparency?

Even if the specification isn't met fully, as long as it's Good Enough, shouldn't that be reflected in the rating? If ASR is the one site that can be relied on for purchasing decisions, free of commercial pressure/sponsorship and audiophile nonsense, then I would expect the relationship between test results and suitability for the job required of the item to be reflected in the rating, and not just SINAD.

S

 

[Jimbob54]

I've felt for some time that there's a disconnect between quality judged on measurements and quality judged by audibility. Just about any product, including the Amazon Basics amp given a broken panther recently, are likely to be audibly transparent in general use.

So, are measurements pointless? No, not at all, they show whether the design is sound, and especially in the case of high priced product, whether there's any technical justification for the high price in terms of better objective performance. They also show whether the item (and therefore the manufacturer) is honest in its specification and of course whether the item being tested is broken.

However, there are so many things that are nowadays far more important than SINAD, which as I said, just about any product at any price can manage >-70dB, when -60dB (0.1%) was and still is, more than is needed for transparency.

For amplifiers, measurement of peak current capability, stability into adverse, especially reactive, loads, shortcircuit protection, clipping behaviour and I'm sure I'll think of some more are, I suggest, more important these days than SINAD.

Is it therefore right to give a broken panther to a product that meets its specification and is adequate for transparency?

Even if the specification isn't met fully, as long as it's Good Enough, shouldn't that be reflected in the rating? If ASR is the one site that can be relied on for purchasing decisions, free of commercial pressure/sponsorship and audiophile nonsense, then I would expect the relationship between test results and suitability for the job required of the item to be reflected in the rating, and not just SINAD.

S

Interesting questions and points. I have always taken headless panther to mean one or more of the following:

- performance way short of the mark in absolute terms- price regardless (the mark not necessarily just transparency)- I think the amazon amp falls here. Hard to distinguish from .....
- performance well below comparative devices price wise- so the Beyerdynamic t1.2 headphones
- actually broken and / or falls massively short in terms of usability/ functionality.

I think if we went by your criteria, too many devices would fall into "lying on his front" panther , which I actually think is the least useful one already due to lots already being in that bucket.

 

[rdenney]

I think the panther respects solid product engineering and development, and loses his head over stuff that doesn’t measure as well as it should, because it indicates sloppy engineering, whether or not the poor measurements are overtly audible.

But, as someone else pointed out recently, just look at the measurements, and forget the damn panther.

Rick “who looks at the measurements to explain why the panther lost his head, or swung his golf club, or whatever, not the other way around” Denney

 

[mhardy6647]

This thread seems like a good time to quote the quintessential Baltimore poet (hon), Ogden Nash.

The Panther

The panther is like a leopard,
Except it hasn't been peppered.
Should you behold a panther crouch,
Prepare to say Ouch.
Better yet, if called by a panther,
Don't anther.

 

[mansr]

If we're doing panther poems, Carroll has a good one too:

'Tis the voice of the Lobster, I heard him declare
"You have baked me too brown: I must sugar my hair."
As a duck with its eyelids, so he with his nose
Trims his belt & his buttons, & turns out his toes.
When the sands are all dry, he is gay as a lark,
And will talk in contemptuous tones of the Shark:
But, when the tide rises and Sharks are around,
His voice has a timid & tremulous sound.

I passed by his garden, & marked with one eye
How the Owl & the Panther were sharing a pie:
The Panther took pie-crust, & gravy, & meat,
While the Owl got the dish as his share of the treat.
When the pie was all finished, the Owl, as a boon,
Was kindly permitted to pocket the spoon:
While the Panther received knife & fork with a growl,
And concluded the banquet by eating the Owl.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Quite simply the whole panther thing has outlived its usefulness. When the forum was new and reviews few it was a nice idiosyncratic touch. A little local character. Now there are far too many reviews in every category and the panther rating system simply isn't adequate in anyway imo.

If you wanted to keep the panther for its visual effect, I'd say have one that has a little sign around its neck with the sign saying whatever rating the device gets. What that rating system would be is another matter.

 

[rdenney]

The only problem with the panther is the goalposts keep moving. A DAC with aSINAD of xx dB might have gotten a golf swing several years ago, but now barely rates a shrug. A rating system should be a surrogate for what is important about the measurements to help people who don’t want or understand the measurements to make distinctions. But when it becomes a ranking system (“The measurements of this item are so-so but it’s the best there is” or “the measurements are very much better than they need to be but others do much better”), it loses value.

Rick “still trusting Amir’s judgment in addition to measurements, even if the panther is merely informative rather than normative” Denney

 

[Vini darko]

Could be a lot worse. Have seen how many wolf's and anime girls Wolf used in his lastest audiogd review?
I like the pathers it gives a quick glimpse into Amir's impression.

 

[mhardy6647]

If we're doing panther poems, Carroll has a good one too:

"Panther, panther burning bright..."

 

[Vini darko]

Try and make sense of this

 

[Jimbob54]

View attachment 116668
Try and make sense of this

Dancing on Audio GD's grave.

 

[Absolute]

Headless panther means it's a stupid decision to buy that product instead of others like it that does the same job, only better.

If there's a headless panther I usually don't click on the review, or I click to see how bad it is for entertainment purposes.

In this time and age there's no excuse to produce electronic equipment worthy of a headless panther.

 

[Yasuo]

I guess the different panther instances is like 24/96 audio - only a very limited group of people can really acknowledge its advantages.

 

[Somafunk]

Ahhhhh.........now I finally understand why the pink panther appears in reviews.

 

[ernestcarl]

I see the panther as more akin to The Idiots Guide to What I Should Buy or (alternatively) Shouldn’t Have Bought.

It’s there when I don’t want to think for myself, and just get a quick feel whether something is Amir approved or not.

I have stuff that got low panther scores. And the measurements and subjective opinions were very informative, too. Either way, no regrets as those items have fulfilled their purpose quite well.

People get way too emotionally attached to cute, inanimate trophy figurines — it’s ridiculous.

 

[boselover61]

Who cares.

 

[Wes]

I think the panther gives a quick idea of whether that product is worth considering at all

 

[Doodski]

For amplifiers, measurement of peak current capability, stability into adverse, especially reactive, loads, shortcircuit protection, clipping behaviour and I'm sure I'll think of some more are, I suggest, more important these days than SINAD.

Going back I suppose about 7-9 months there was discussion and concern about possible destructive testing. The result of determining what is good and bad for both @amirm and the owner of the device under test was that possible destructive testing methods should be avoided.

 

[Emlin]

What's needed is a transparent panther. If you can't see it, you won't be able to hear the kit either.

 

[Beershaun]

The only problem with the panther is the goalposts keep moving. A DAC with aSINAD of xx dB might have gotten a golf swing several years ago, but now barely rates a shrug. A rating system should be a surrogate for what is important about the measurements to help people who don’t want or understand the measurements to make distinctions. But when it becomes a ranking system (“The measurements of this item are so-so but it’s the best there is” or “the measurements are very much better than they need to be but others do much better”), it loses value.

Rick “still trusting Amir’s judgment in addition to measurements, even if the panther is merely informative rather than normative” Denney

that is life in business. The goalposts are always moving. What was impressive a few years ago is now table stakes for customers. It’s not the panthers moving the goalposts. They are reflecting a judgment on whether or not we should spend out money on the item for its given purpose or get something else for the same money.