• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

When I worked for Garrard

OP
Frank Dernie

Frank Dernie

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 24, 2016
Messages
6,452
Likes
15,798
Location
Oxfordshire
Hi,
Back in the day most turntables had rubber grommets motor suspension. it would be interesting to know about garrard 301/401 motor suspension. what were the reasons having 2 x three springs at an angle ? A little discussion did took place at other forum - Link

View attachment 52549

Thanks and regards.
It is 44 years since I left Garrard. Your picture is of the 301/401 type motor. These are idler drive motors so there is a side thrust when engaged. The springs are there to react against this load and keep the motor vertical.
 

mackat

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 31, 2019
Messages
146
Likes
200
I happen to have an interesting piece of Garrard history. From my understanding, Garrard, in essence, was sold in 1979 to a Brazilian company called Gradiente. This is a very famous brand-name in Brazil in hi-f, being as far as I know, the only large Brazilian hi-fi company. Gradiente produced a number of turntables, ranging from quite low-end to quite respectable. The Gradiente RP-II is one of the latter, being held by many Brazilians as likely the best turntable ever produced in Brazil (It was made in the free-trade zone in Manaus, Amazonas state). Imagine my surprise when I found one last year on my local Craigslist in San Diego, California! I, being quite interested in all things Brazil, had to have it. It very well could be the only one (or one of very few) in the US, as it was produced for the Brazilian domestic market. It’s quite a nice suspended belt-drive turntable, with a Jelco-made straight tonearm that came with a rebranded Japanese high-output MC cartridge (A Glanz GMC-10EH). It also came with a little accessory box, that contains a record weight, a level, 45 adapter, and some tools.

Here’s some more information about it (in Portuguese): http://www.audiorama.com.br/gradiente/toca_discos.htm#RP-II

5D863F9F-D64F-4979-BAFC-6450BC49BFDD.jpeg

61E71A46-5DE4-4975-9D04-9ECA1BBBC59D.jpeg
 

Hiten

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2019
Messages
380
Likes
488
Location
India
It is 44 years since I left Garrard. Your picture is of the 301/401 type motor. These are idler drive motors so there is a side thrust when engaged. The springs are there to react against this load and keep the motor vertical.
Ahh! as common with idlers turntables to keep pressure on rim and wheel and pulley straight. Thanks for the reply.
earlier I though the suspension had more to it by designing such way. Now on hindsight I think the designers used springs and robust systems to keep it maintenance free. Rubber grommets may deteriote. This looks like it was designed to last longer and it did. Infact very very well. I hear/read these tables were running in studios 24 hours.
Best regards.
edit : additions made
 
Last edited:

Hiten

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2019
Messages
380
Likes
488
Location
India
As things go, the luxury market now finds outfits refurbing the old Garrards, putting them in exotic wood bases, and selling them for the price of a high performance Japanese motorcycle.

If I say mildly, yes prices seems to be not justifiable. Around here people ask for around 1300 dollars that too for a bad condition one.
Regards
 
OP
Frank Dernie

Frank Dernie

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 24, 2016
Messages
6,452
Likes
15,798
Location
Oxfordshire
If I say mildly, yes prices seems to be not justifiable. Around here people ask for around 1300 dollars that too for a bad condition one.
Regards
I agree this is absurd. The 301 was already superceded by the slightly improved and re-styled 401 by the time I worked there. They were £72 new iirc.
 
OP
Frank Dernie

Frank Dernie

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 24, 2016
Messages
6,452
Likes
15,798
Location
Oxfordshire
I happen to have an interesting piece of Garrard history. From my understanding, Garrard, in essence, was sold in 1979 to a Brazilian company called Gradiente. This is a very famous brand-name in Brazil in hi-f, being as far as I know, the only large Brazilian hi-fi company. Gradiente produced a number of turntables, ranging from quite low-end to quite respectable. The Gradiente RP-II is one of the latter, being held by many Brazilians as likely the best turntable ever produced in Brazil (It was made in the free-trade zone in Manaus, Amazonas state). Imagine my surprise when I found one last year on my local Craigslist in San Diego, California! I, being quite interested in all things Brazil, had to have it. It very well could be the only one (or one of very few) in the US, as it was produced for the Brazilian domestic market. It’s quite a nice suspended belt-drive turntable, with a Jelco-made straight tonearm that came with a rebranded Japanese high-output MC cartridge (A Glanz GMC-10EH). It also came with a little accessory box, that contains a record weight, a level, 45 adapter, and some tools.

Here’s some more information about it (in Portuguese): http://www.audiorama.com.br/gradiente/toca_discos.htm#RP-II

View attachment 52663
View attachment 52662
Interesting to see the plate with hydrodynamic bearing written on it. One of my colleagues was working in such a design but it had been pateneted in the UK and thge patent holder refused permission for Garrard to use it, so it never went into production. Maybe this TT has it! it worked well iirc.
I have a friend in Manaus and visited in 2018.
 

gikigill

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2018
Messages
358
Likes
459
Location
Melbourne, Australia.
Hi Frank, how about a thread about Williams and your compatriots Newey, Brawn, Wolff, Head and Lowe and of course the man himself FW and his protege CW. Probably 20-30 WCs between those names.
 
OP
Frank Dernie

Frank Dernie

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 24, 2016
Messages
6,452
Likes
15,798
Location
Oxfordshire
Hi Frank, how about a thread about Williams and your compatriots Newey, Brawn, Wolff, Head and Lowe and of course the man himself FW and his protege CW. Probably 20-30 WCs between those names.
Not really a subject for a hifi forum is it?
I am going for lunch with Patrick today, we have been mates for 45 years!
I visit Frank every 3 weeks or so but he isn't very well, sadly. Hopefully he'll be able to make it to my birthday lunch next month, he says so, I hope he is well enough.
Ross and I used to be in close touch and go fishing together until he became a team principle, since then he doesn't phone any more.
 
OP
Frank Dernie

Frank Dernie

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 24, 2016
Messages
6,452
Likes
15,798
Location
Oxfordshire
Brawn has won 8 CCs and WCs, he is clearly not going to engage with the hoi-polloi after wearing the infamous Ferrari Red and conquering Imola
Well 40 years ago (when Ross was still a R&D technician) we had a gravel pit in Berkshire which we stocked with trout to fish. We did go upmarket over the years but now Ross is likely to be taking a helicopter to fish for trout in an inaccessible lake in New Zealand, not my price range any more.
 
OP
Frank Dernie

Frank Dernie

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 24, 2016
Messages
6,452
Likes
15,798
Location
Oxfordshire
Here's an interesting 1970s Garrard.

View attachment 72912
This was in production when I was there.
It worked well in reality but died a bit when some of the non-fact marketing bollox stared swirling round the business so it "wasn't rigid enough" (it was from a record playing perspective)
 

anmpr1

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
3,739
Likes
6,449
This was in production when I was there.
It worked well in reality but died a bit when some of the non-fact marketing bollox stared swirling round the business so it "wasn't rigid enough" (it was from a record playing perspective)
I use a restored Z-100 in a secondary system. That old Syncho-Labe motor unit appears to be foolproof. It's difficult to obtain idler wheels, but the originals last a long time. You have to clean up all the hardened grease, but once that's done there's no parts that go bad. It's all metal (steel with some brass, and a few plastic trim pieces). Nothing like it would ever be made today.

If the Zero had a 'problem' it was that it came out (early 1970s) when cartridge makers (and the mainstream press) were all gaga over low tracking forces. The general idea was that if you were tracking a cartridge over 1 gram you were ruining your records. The American cartridge company, Empire, advertised that their cartridges could track at a tenth of a gram with a suitable arm (i.e., one that was never made). It was a ridiculous claim, but that's how it was back then. Another company, ADC, sold high compliance cartridges with such jiggly cantilever suspensions that buyers complained about high failure rates as the stylus would literally sink into the body, collapsed. Those sorts of high compliance low tracking force cartridges were not suited for use in the Garrard pantograph tonearm.

From experience I found that the Zero 100 arm does better with a bit more downward force than was thought 'safe' in those day. 1.5 to 1.75 grams with a 'modern' cartridge works well. Even 2.0g (which the latest Audio Technicas support) works fine. The best I've found are the Shure cartridges with the damping brush (which wasn't even invented at the time of the Z-100 and in any case are no longer made). Those control the arm satisfactorily and are an excellent match.

My take on late Garrard is that by the mid-70s they were answering a question few mainstream consumers were asking. For various reasons, audiofools at that time (like me) mostly gravitated to Japanese product which was generally superior in mechanical and electrical function, and more pleasing in cosmetic form. Compare the Technics SL-1350 fully auto turntable with any period Garrard (or Dual or Miracord etc.). Technics arm motion was smooth and linear, whereas European sourced automatics tended to be herky-jerky in their mechanical operation. Too, Japanese servo direct drive motors were much more exact than the rim drives, at least in smooth and silent operation. With a servo motor, speed was pretty much 'set it and forget it'. Mechanical rim drive required speed adjustment each time you started the record, because the idler would not contact the rim at the exact place. And with a stack of records speed was typically not as precise as with servo direct drive, due to the varying weight of the stack on the platter. Once quartz PLL came along it was all over for mid-range mechanical turntables.

Second, although most top end Garrards (Z-100, SL-95) were probably used as manual tables, a lot of people still thought of them as essentially multiple play automatics, and consumers were gravitating away from multiple play turntables by the mid '70s. I read somewhere that Garrard was sold to a Brazilian company; whatever happened to them they seemed to just fade away. That is my recollection. Dual? For their part, I read somewhere that United Audio employees (US importers of Dual) came to work one day and the doors were locked. No advance notice. Just no work. The company was history.

All that said, I understand Dual is back in business making record players for the Euro market, but I haven't seen them here in the States. I also use a Dual 704 which is going strong--originally made in 1977. On the 'high-end' Garrard 301/401s are through the roof. So what goes around...
 
OP
Frank Dernie

Frank Dernie

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 24, 2016
Messages
6,452
Likes
15,798
Location
Oxfordshire
I read somewhere that Garrard was sold to a Brazilian company; whatever happened to them they seemed to just fade away.
Gradiente, yes.
SME have bought the name back recently along with Loricraft, a company close to here run by an ex-Garrard guy who bought up all the spares.
 
OP
Frank Dernie

Frank Dernie

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 24, 2016
Messages
6,452
Likes
15,798
Location
Oxfordshire
For various reasons, audiofools at that time (like me) mostly gravitated to Japanese product which was generally superior in mechanical and electrical function
I remember having a Pioneer PL12D and a Technics equivalent in for evaluation.
They were superbly production engineered.
Where Garrard's stylist had put the cue control at the front the Pioneer and Technics had it next to the arm, they were just bits of bent wire held in place by a couple of washers but they worked perfectly and cost almost nothing. The Garrard had loads of levers and cams which were expensive to make and had loads of backlash, inevitable to match the signed off styling.
It was stupid. The Japanese models also had beautifully painted dough mouldings instead of steel for the top plate. Again cheap and better looking.
The demise was inevitable.
 

DSJR

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 27, 2020
Messages
3,387
Likes
4,523
Location
Suffolk Coastal, UK
The GT55 was stiff to operate but the arm had slightly reduced mass I remember. In the meantime, I've had huge fun with my Z100, AP76 and 86SB as well as an AT6 and 60mk2 removing the glue-like dried greases and getting them back to proper working order. Surprising that they 'sound' as good as they do as some parts seem very frail and others downright sloppy :) They sit alongside three Lencos, an early 70's Beogram 3000 and numerous Duals, which are generally superbly engineered if not as 'homely' as the Garrard designs. This little lot's days are numbered here as I need to turn the minimal investment into income now and reduce the life-laundry for when we inevitably move...

One I'd like to keep though -

Thirty years or more ago, I was *given* a mint 401 in sturdy home made base and cover, fitted with a superbly made 'HiFi News' unipivot tonearm not unlike the infamous Hadcock 228. It went straight to a friend and into clean warm storage and only came back to daylight a few weeks ago after he passed away and his substantial audio and bike collection was gathered up to be sold on. It's still in lovely order but will obviously need a darned good service before being put back into use. I'm hoping it's a quiet one as so many of the suffered motor vibration breakthrough (not all did in the days before massive or layered plinths) and also that the arm, like its Hadcock look-alike, can track my beloved Decca Gold Microscanner properly (which broke as almost all Decca's do but which was fixed by the maker some time back and can offer reproduction from a good pressing surprisingly close to the master - I've done direct comparisons so feel safe in that statement).

I'm eternally fond of the Garrard 401, rumble-box as it inevitably is. Back in the mid 60's when I was eight or nine, I first saw one in the window of a store in Hemel Hempstead (I think the store was called 'Tee Vee Sound') and couldn't understanbd why the tonearm was separate to it (a Decca arm in its box on a side shelf). Them were the days, but the then modern 401 styling and intrigue set me on my life's audio journey and a long career.
 

A Surfer

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 1, 2019
Messages
1,139
Likes
1,245
I remember having a Pioneer PL12D and a Technics equivalent in for evaluation.
They were superbly production engineered.
Where Garrard's stylist had put the cue control at the front the Pioneer and Technics had it next to the arm, they were just bits of bent wire held in place by a couple of washers but they worked perfectly and cost almost nothing. The Garrard had loads of levers and cams which were expensive to make and had loads of backlash, inevitable to match the signed off styling.
It was stupid. The Japanese models also had beautifully painted dough mouldings instead of steel for the top plate. Again cheap and better looking.
The demise was inevitable.
I really respect the fact that despite your deep and clearly fond ties to Garrard, you remain objective enough to give credit where credit is due. That is a sign of excellent emotional intelligence. Respect sir.
 

anmpr1

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
3,739
Likes
6,449
The Japanese models also had beautifully painted dough mouldings instead of steel for the top plate. Again cheap and better looking. The demise was inevitable.

The cosmetic factor cannot be overlooked in the marketplace. That said, up until 1970 or so, top of the line Garrards looked classy. But you could see the cost cutting in the line over time, especially in the Zero. Garrard went from polished brass fittings to unpolished aluminum (counterweight and controls). The Zero replacement model, GT-55 (by all reports a more sophisticated machine with lower mass magnesium arm, and belt drive) --the overall package--looked decidedly down market. Julian Hirsch, a man who almost never said anything negative in his Stereo Review reviews made it a point to mention that the deck sure didn't look like a top of the line unit. And it didn't.

From a cosmetic standpoint consumers had a choice of Japanese record players from Denon and JVC featuring beautiful (but fake) rosewood laminate over particle board. Looked upmarket (however the bases were actually flimsy and more resonant than they ought to have been). Controls were all motorized and lovely to operate with a solid feel. You had to be gentle with the Garrard because it was easy to jar the table when operating the controls.

Below is a stock image of a JVC deck I once owned that highlights the fit 'n finish. It was a mid-range deck with electo-mechanical arm controls for damping, stylus force, cue control, etc. All that was adjustable while the record was playing. Of course if you wanted real wood and mass, you had to spend a lot more money: something like the Micro--second image. The third image is the last of the zero tracking error Garrards. The contrast is marked.

jvc-ql-y66f.jpg


micro.jpg


gt.jpg
 
Top Bottom