When Does a Stylus Need Cleaning?

[restorer-john]

What are you saying, that styluses don't wear at all/need replacement or something else?

We have high powered microscopes, my father and I. He's studied (being a doctor with a microscope, as they do...) his diamond stylii since the 1960s. I've studied mine since the 1980s. None show any wear, be it under extreme magnification.

Sure, we have hundreds of stylii. Many new, many secondhand and not one diamond shows wear, significant enough to affect the response, tracking or performance compared to an original, NOS stylii.

Tracking ability is unchanged until the elastomer suspension begins to deteriorate. But the diamonds outlive the suspension and the accidents. Trust me, I know...

 

[Digby]

We have high powered microscopes, my father and I. He's studied (being a doctor with a microscope, as they do...) his diamond stylii since the 1960s. I've studied mine since the 1980s. None show any wear, be it under extreme magnification.

OK, but a stylus can damage a record. Are you saying this is all suspension failure and/or improper setup, and wear on the diamond has no role to play?

I have compared a "worn" and a new stylus side by side (digital recordings in audacity), the new one definitely had better highs and seemingly less distortion. Are you saying this is solely a function of the suspension giving out?

 

[restorer-john]

OK, but a stylus can damage a record. Are you saying this is all suspension failure and/or improper setup, and wear on the diamond has no role to play?

I have compared a "worn" and a new stylus side by side (digital recordings in audacity), the new one definitely had better highs and seemingly less distortion. Are you saying this is solely a function of the suspension giving out?

Have you actually, ever looked at a stylus under high powered magnification? Be honest.

I know you haven't because if you had, you wouldn't even be asking.

A truly worn stylus becomes smoother. The edges less defined and the record wear actually decreases. An elliptical becomes less elliptical. A conical doesn't change at all IME. I cannot see any change in the profile of a nearly 55 year old conical stylus as compared to a brand new (NOS) conical of the same type.

There was a huge industry back in the day promoting stylus changes every x hundred hours. It was complete and utter BS. I used to sell customers new stylii, throw their old one in the bin, get it out, take it home, put it under the microsope, clean it and use it forever. I still have plenty of 'worn out' rejects that are identical in profile to brand new stylii.

 

[Digby]

I haven't, never said I have. I'm asking you to explain the process of wear. A stylus needs replacement after a time (doesn't sound as good, this can be checked) - are you saying the diamond is not the problem. Please explain.

BTW: I am using the word stylus to include the diamond, not just the stylus itself (the object as a replacement unit is referred to as a stylus). Is this where the confusion lies?

 

[restorer-john]

A stylus needs replacement after a time

This is the issue. There is no specific 'time'. You are dealing with the hardest substance known to man.

Horizontal drill bits rigs that can work for 12 months through solid rock at extreme forces and not need replacing. And yet, some silly audiophiles think dragging a tiny industrial diamond along a piece of vinyl for a few hundred hours at a few grams of tracking force means they 'wear' out?

I have some great pics of styli someplace on my NAS, I'll dig them out, but in the meantime, grab a decent high power microscope, take it out in the sun and look at your stylus. Clean it and look again. Focus down from above, very slowly and look at the facets (if an elliptical or special shape) or the smoooth edge of the cone. Turn it sideways and look at the profile, the tip and the very end contact point. Look hard at the actual contact point- it isn't smooth or sharp. It's just the end of the stone. It's at the limit of diamond profiling I guess.

Marvel at the polish, the grind and the skill. Wonder what all the fuss about 'wear' is. Report back with your findings.

 

[Digby]

So it only needs cleaning (with what), is what you are saying?

OK, but the suspension still seems to sag after a time. There is a lifespan of a stylus in that sense, no?

 

[restorer-john]

OK, but the suspension still seems to sag after a time. There is a lifespan of a stylus in that sense, no?

Some do, some don't. We have literally hundreds of cartridges and styli (my father and I are both HiFi aficionados). There's no rule for ones that will last and ones that will collapse/fail. The elastomers can stay normal, go hard, or go soft and collapse.

Get a decent test record or three. Test your arm/TT/cart combos for tracking and you'll be fine.

 

[BDWoody]

Get a decent test record or three. Test your arm/TT/cart combos for tracking and you'll be fine.

Did you use anything fancy like an oscilloscope to align your cartridges, or did you just use the standard protractor things?

 

[restorer-john]

Did you use anything fancy like an oscilloscope to align your cartridges, or did you just use the standard protractor things?

There's nothing that comes off vinyl, even a test record that looks good on a 'scope. Nulling at high frequencies doesn't work and, apart from tweaking VTA and azimuth, it varies wildly from record to record. Even test records that are supposedly identical are not.

But the tracking tests are good. The shure, ortofon, W&G etc. A good cart/arm combo won't be thrown out of the groove whereas a crap one will.

But, you can take the same cart you blamed for being poor and put it in a different arm/tt combo and it performs perfectly well.

No rhyme or reason sometimes. Thank goodness for digital. Praise digital.

 

[SIY]

I clean any new records especially well, as I want to remove any traces of Mould Release Agent, which is oily and dust sticks well.

Common myth. Mold release agent is generally not used for vinyl pressing. There is often an internal compound which helps reduce any sticking, but it tends not to migrate to the surface.

 

[sergeauckland]

Common myth. Mold release agent is generally not used for vinyl pressing. There is often an internal compound which helps reduce any sticking, but it tends not to migrate to the surface.

I wondered about this for along time, then read an article in Audio Asylum entitled 'For Those Who Think Mold Release Doesn't Exist' that convinced me it's real. It seems that each record company has their own formulation for the vinyl they press with, and some of the agents do apparently leach out. As I can never know which label uses what, and pretty much all my records are bought used, I clean them all with an alcohol/water mixture in my RCM.

S.

 

[BDWoody]

But the tracking tests are good. The shure, ortofon, W&G etc. A good cart/arm combo won't be thrown out of the groove whereas a crap one will.

I was more trying to figure out what method you used to align your cartridges. Sounds like you've used a scope before to look at things, but don't see much value in anything too involved beyond the standard physical protractor and eyeball. Is that about right?

I haven't used anything other than test records and protractors, but wondered what someone who has done it hundreds of times does for his own system.

Edit: I have no issues with tracking, and using the readout on the Puffin I can see both channels are very much in balance...arm is dead level... I don't have any complaints, and it sounds pretty good to me, but happy to learn from others. Don't want to leave easy performance gains on the table after all...

 

[Digby]

My experience with the Hi-Fi News test record is that it puts the anti-skate much too high. Using some other method now (the tonearm very slowly moving inwards at run out grooves), seems better, but not sure how accurate really.

Like BDWoody, I would like some guidance on this and protractors. I printed a protractor off vinylengine for my turntable and it was no good (stylus canted inwards, when it was supposed to be parallel). I'm using Technics 52mm measurement device for SL-1210mk2, much better, but it seems a bit rudimentary.

 

[SIY]

I wondered about this for along time, then read an article in Audio Asylum entitled 'For Those Who Think Mold Release Doesn't Exist' that convinced me it's real. It seems that each record company has their own formulation for the vinyl they press with, and some of the agents do apparently leach out. As I can never know which label uses what, and pretty much all my records are bought used, I clean them all with an alcohol/water mixture in my RCM.

S.

Mobility of internal release is pretty low unless you really screw up a formulation. External release is pretty much non-existent in that application.

 

[jkasch]

A real low cost but effective record cleaner. You supply the vacuum and turn the record manually, but the result is same as expensive machines. No affiliation.

Squeaky Clean Vinyl MK-III RCM 3D Printed Record Cleaner (Classic Black)

Thousands of these have been sold and I'm very proud of this RCM Google is my friend, as well as yours, so please search away and find out how popular this is for a fraction of the price of traditional RCM's The MK-III comes complete and ready to clean your records right out of the box. You...

squeakycleanvinyl.com

 

[Robin L]

No wonder you write vinyl off and complain about excess IGD among other things. A bargain basement elliptical will always sound meh, worth having for 45s though. You really need a fine line stylus to make a fair assessment of vinyl.

I've had/heard fine-line styli on turntables. I used "bargain basement" styli for practical reasons.

 

[Angsty]

This is the issue. There is no specific 'time'. You are dealing with the hardest substance known to man.

Horizontal drill bits rigs that can work for 12 months through solid rock at extreme forces and not need replacing. And yet, some silly audiophiles think dragging a tiny industrial diamond along a piece of vinyl for a few hundred hours at a few grams of tracking force means they 'wear' out?

I have some great pics of styli someplace on my NAS, I'll dig them out, but in the meantime, grab a decent high power microscope, take it out in the sun and look at your stylus. Clean it and look again. Focus down from above, very slowly and look at the facets (if an elliptical or special shape) or the smoooth edge of the cone. Turn it sideways and look at the profile, the tip and the very end contact point. Look hard at the actual contact point- it isn't smooth or sharp. It's just the end of the stone. It's at the limit of diamond profiling I guess.

Marvel at the polish, the grind and the skill. Wonder what all the fuss about 'wear' is. Report back with your findings.

I’d admit that the idea of worn styli is a self-serving notion for the stylus industry. I’m not yet ready to waive off the veracity of it as worn styli have been documented by many, many people over the decades. What is a better idea is to use jewelers microscopes to validate wear before replacement, but that could be an expensive proposition in itself.

@restorer-john - What level of magnification does it take to validate or invalidate wear? I’m sure I could find references in published photos, but I’d like to know from your experience. I hear that WallyScopes are flying off the shelf, per Fremer.

 

[jkasch]

Shure sold a stylus examination microscope that relied on the reflection of light to determine stylus wear. Page 10 shows examples. Whether it’s a legit indicator or not I don’t know.

https://pubs.shure.com/guide/SEK-2/en-US.pdf

 

[MCH]

If someone is curious, this patent from RCA gives an example of vinyl composition and explains the role of each component.
Regarding the discussion a couple of posts above, note that both the plasticizer and the release agent can, in principle, migrate to the surface (the release agent would not be efficient if it wouldn't). However, the examples in this patent for instance, are high molecular weight (both plasticizer and wax) and i believe in normal conditions should not be something to worry about. Think that these processes are accelerated when the record is pressed at high temperatures. Note that the patent also metions that if you add too much you might get into trouble though.

US3960790A - Disc record and method of compounding disc record composition - Google Patents

A method of making a disc record molding composition by compounding a copolymer of vinyl chloride-vinyl acetate and a homopolymer of vinyl chloride, with carbon black, a resin stabilizer, a resin plasticizer, an antistatic agent and a mold release agent in a series of blending steps which...

patents.google.com

 

[Digby]

Any comments regarding post #53 @restorer-john