When did you decide to study STEM major in university? Tips for my daughter?

[MRC01]

... has your daughter ever taken things apart just for the fun of it, to see how they work? I've met some engineers who said they never did such things, and they were average at best. We often think of engineering as building things, but it's just as often the reverse. A lot of time is spent figuring out just what the guy before you was thinking. This is especially true in software. ...

 

[mansr]

My son also did not really take physical things apart for fun while in high school

That behaviour usually starts around age 5, or whenever the kid learns to successfully remove a screw.

Like many kids, he spent most his time playing computer games.

Many games promote problem-solving skills, so that's a good thing.

She prefers spending time working on getting good grades in school.

Unfortunately, "getting good grades" is a skill that is all but useless once you're out of school. Also unfortunately, it is essential in order to get accepted to a good university.

 

[BrEpBrEpBrEpBrEp]

I'm of the personal opinion that a purely academic approach to engineering is a recipe for boredom and disappointment. I really do think the people that do best in the field are those who like to tinker, and that a large part of the useful things you learn in engineering schools are extracurricular. That's why it's such a shame there's a huge focus on grades for entry, as @mansr said.

However, there's a lot of fields of engineering that aren't necessarily that way. I'd recommend she choose one she's interested in for its own sake (if she's considering engineering), because otherwise it's just a brutally difficult degree for no benefit. If she's starting senior year in September, then she's still got plenty of time to try a few projects, some tinkering, and do some research on what programs might fit her interests.

 

[Pdxwayne]

That behaviour usually starts around age 5, or whenever the kid learns to successfully remove a screw.


Many games promote problem-solving skills, so that's a good thing.


Unfortunately, "getting good grades" is a skill that is all but useless once you're out of school. Also unfortunately, it is essential in order to get accepted to a good university.

Haha, my son was exposed to games since very young age, like you say, like 5 years old or even younger...His passion was playing something like Nintendo game boy, xbox game console, computer games, and then online multiplayer games....

Maybe my daughter is not suitable to be a pure engineer? She still has great abilities to solve problems. She is taking IB advanced math (similar to precalculus in college) and she is doing just fine. But, she doesn't show that tendency to tinker.....

 

[Pdxwayne]

I'm of the personal opinion that a purely academic approach to engineering is a recipe for boredom and disappointment. I really do think the people that do best in the field are those who like to tinker, and that a large part of the useful things you learn in engineering schools are extracurricular. That's why it's such a shame there's a huge focus on grades for entry, as @mansr said.

However, there's a lot of fields of engineering that aren't necessarily that way. I'd recommend she choose one she's interested in for its own sake (if she's considering engineering), because otherwise it's just a brutally difficult degree for no benefit. If she's starting senior year in September, then she's still got plenty of time to try a few projects, some tinkering, and do some research on what programs might fit her interests.

Thank you for the tips!

 

[ABQdude]

I knew I loved mathematics in grade school, even had calculus by 8th grade. Went all through high school still loving math and all science. When in college as a math major, I never really got good counseling as to what I could do with math as a major. So mid-college I switched my major to biology and applied and got into medical school. Became a family physician and have had no regrets, but still love science! You never know where the love of STEM will lead.

 

[voodooless]

She is a hard worker who plans way ahead and willing to sacrifice funs to achieve her goals.

The goal should not be the objective here (or the other way around )! She should ask herself why she's sacrificing all that time? Simple exercise: Ask the "Why?" questions 5 times and try to dig deeper.

I never linked playing computer games much. For one I sucked at them mostly. What I did like is creating them. It was hugely satisfying to get a 4 sprint monster working on an MSX back in the day. Oh, and taking things apart.. don't even get started on that. I took everything apart since I could hold a screwdriver

 

[tgray]

Maybe my daughter is not suitable to be a pure engineer? She still has great abilities to solve problems. She is taking IB advanced math (similar to precalculus in college) and she is doing just fine. But, she doesn't show that tendency to tinker.....

She will figure it out and college is the perfect place for it. Sounds like she enjoys challenges. Maybe physics will interest her, maybe math, maybe neuroscience, maybe literature

I'm personally glad I did not get engineering degrees (nothing wrong with them!) as they would not have interested me academically, even though I work in a technical field. Physics was much more intriguing - it made getting a job outside of academia a little more drawn out, but the diverse background has ultimately helped a lot.

 

[MRC01]

... Maybe my daughter is not suitable to be a pure engineer? She still has great abilities to solve problems. She is taking IB advanced math (similar to precalculus in college) and she is doing just fine. But, she doesn't show that tendency to tinker.....

I was one of those tinkering kids starting about age 8. Lawnmowers, bicycles, cars (they were simpler back then), walkmans, computers, software, I was curious and could not resist taking them apart to see how they work, tinkering with them. My friends were like this too. Then in college I met this guy (it was a class in group theory) turns out he was a high school kid taking graduate level math classes and also took the Putnam exam with us. He was not a tinkerer, didn't really "get" mechanical stuff or electronics. But he was simply brilliant and creative, one of the smartest people I've ever met.

My daughter is like this too. She was on the robotics team in high school, now is studying math & comp sci @ RPI. But she's never been a tinkerer. All that is to say, while "the knack" is correlated with the STEM field, it's not a requirement. Plenty of successful people in STEM careers are not tinkerers.

 

[mansr]

My daughter is like this too. She was on the robotics team in high school, now is studying math & comp sci @ RPI. But she's never been a tinkerer. All that is to say, while "the knack" is correlated with the STEM field, it's not a requirement. Plenty of successful people in STEM careers are not tinkerers.

I think it's most strongly associated with engineering, less with science, and not much at all with maths.

 

[Pdxwayne]

I knew I loved mathematics in grade school, even had calculus by 8th grade. Went all through high school still loving math and all science. When in college as a math major, I never really got good counseling as to what I could do with math as a major. So mid-college I switched my major to biology and applied and got into medical school. Became a family physician and have had no regrets, but still love science! You never know where the love of STEM will lead.

Thanks for sharing!

 

[Pdxwayne]

The goal should not be the objective here (or the other way around )! She should ask herself why she's sacrificing all that time? Simple exercise: Ask the "Why?" questions 5 times and try to dig deeper.

I never linked playing computer games much. For one I sucked at them mostly. What I did like is creating them. It was hugely satisfying to get a 4 sprint monster working on an MSX back in the day. Oh, and taking things apart.. don't even get started on that. I took everything apart since I could hold a screwdriver

Cool. Will get her to ask "Why" 5 times.
Thanks!

 

[Pdxwayne]

She will figure it out and college is the perfect place for it. Sounds like she enjoys challenges. Maybe physics will interest her, maybe math, maybe neuroscience, maybe literature

I'm personally glad I did not get engineering degrees (nothing wrong with them!) as they would not have interested me academically, even though I work in a technical field. Physics was much more intriguing - it made getting a job outside of academia a little more drawn out, but the diverse background has ultimately helped a lot.

Thanks for sharing!

 

[Pdxwayne]

I was one of those tinkering kids starting about age 8. Lawnmowers, bicycles, cars (they were simpler back then), walkmans, computers, software, I was curious and could not resist taking them apart to see how they work, tinkering with them. My friends were like this too. Then in college I met this guy (it was a class in group theory) turns out he was a high school kid taking graduate level math classes and also took the Putnam exam with us. He was not a tinkerer, didn't really "get" mechanical stuff or electronics. But he was simply brilliant and creative, one of the smartest people I've ever met.

My daughter is like this too. She was on the robotics team in high school, now is studying math & comp sci @ RPI. But she's never been a tinkerer. All that is to say, while "the knack" is correlated with the STEM field, it's not a requirement. Plenty of successful people in STEM careers are not tinkerers.

Cool! Thx for sharing!

 

[fun]

From the perspective of the student, the key question is, "How likely am I to get a good job in my field when I graduate?" It's the percentage, not the absolute numbers, that answers this question.

For top notch students like OP's daughter, the question is more like "If I can get into the top schools like MIT, but instead I chose to go to a good state university, how less likely would I a get a good job?".

I would think going to the top schools would still provide some edge (e.g. 98% vs 95% probability, a number I make up), but it's not as drastic as the general percentage of students that go to good companies indicate, because the particular student is already top notch (i.e. 99+% percentile) to begin with, while the percentage is based on the average. If consider cost differences and other factors, the decision might not be as straight forward.

I think the best thing is to apply to difference places, and make the decision based on which universities the student are accepted.

 

[Pdxwayne]

For top notch students like OP's daughter, the question is more like "If I can get into the top schools like MIT, but instead I chose to go to a good state university, how less likely would I a get a good job?".

I would think going to the top schools would still provide some edge (e.g. 98% vs 95% probability, a number I make up), but it's not as drastic as the general percentage of students that go to good companies indicate, because the particular student is already top notch (i.e. 99+% percentile) to begin with, while the percentage is based on the average. If consider cost differences and other factors, the decision might not be as straight forward.

I think the best thing is to apply to difference places, and make the decision based on which universities the student are accepted.

Thanks for sharing!

 

[MRC01]

... I would think going to the top schools would still provide some edge (e.g. 98% vs 95% probability, a number I make up), but it's not as drastic as the general percentage of students that go to good companies indicate, because the particular student is already top notch (i.e. 99+% percentile) to begin with, while the percentage is based on the average. ...

Good point. In other words, if top notch school S1 has a rate of 99% and mid-tier school S2 has a rate of 90%, what is the expected rate for a student at S2 who also was accepted to S1? Clearly, it's higher than the average in S2, but how much higher?

Bayesian analysis is one way to estimate these kinds of questions. More generally, it offers a way to revise the overall probability to reflect additional "prior" knowledge.

 

[Semla]

We (=my employer) found that having good role models is extremely important for women in STEM, more so than for men. Look for a female mentor, that will help her whatever she decides to do.

 

[Pdxwayne]

We (=my employer) found that having good role models is extremely important for women in STEM, more so than for men. Look for a female mentor, that will help her whatever she decides to do.

Thanks for the tip!

 

[JeffS7444]

A few more thoughts on university life in general that might've helped me had I thought of them at the time:

I should've more actively dropped certain classes when it was clear from the first week that I was struggling: It may have been my fault, it may have been the prof's, or maybe it was just the combo that wasn't working, but blaming myself and trying to succeed by sheer act of will and determination was not a winning plan. Everyone sucks at something!

On the other hand, when class information just seemed to stick, and the As came without herculean effort, I shouldn't have been so quick to dismiss my success being due to the class being an easy "A": Maybe I had an aptitude for the subject and should have taken it more seriously.

A weakness of schools in general is that they can't teach you to be the person who employs all those brilliant, hardworking engineers and scientists! Some of the USA's most successful people seem to have realized this limitation, and gotten educated up to a point, then dropped out to pursue their vision. No one will remember Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg or Jack Dorsey for their college GPAs.