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When did you break the illusion of more expense is better? Did ASR help ;)

From school days, I have always preferred to DIY my HiFi, as firstly, I could, and secondly, that way I got exactly the facilities I wanted. Aesthetics were more of an issue, as I build 'functional' not pretty!

However, back around 1976, with all the hype around the Linn Sondek turntable, I decided to replace my DIY Connoisseur BD1 costing even for then cheap £13 as a kit, with a Linn Sondek which cost me £76 at Trade Price bought through my employer. I thought that the Linn would wipe the proverbial floor with a BD1, reusing the same arm (SME3009) and cartridge (Shure V15II). Not a bit of it. Couldn't hear any difference, so concluded that the Linn was just hype as the BD1 was already Good Enough. So, for the last now almost 50 years I've worked on the basis that Good Enough is quite Good Enough, and I've bought functionality, not hype.

Hence my current main system of DIYed active B&W 801 driven by Behringer electronics, a Squeezebox Touch and a pair of vintage Broadcast turntables. My second system is DIYed valve amplifiers, and a third is a 1980s AIWA mini system that I love the looks of.

S.
 
When I bought late 80ties a NAD 2200 power amp combined with a NAD 1240 pre-amp so no need for a Krell or Burmester combination 15 to 25x the NAD price :facepalm:
 
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sergeauckland said:
From school days, I have always preferred to DIY my HiFi, as firstly, I could, and secondly, that way I got exactly the facilities I wanted. Aesthetics were more of an issue, as I build 'functional' not pretty!

However, back around 1976, with all the hype around the Linn Sondek turntable, I decided to replace my DIY Connoisseur BD1 costing even for then cheap £13 as a kit, with a Linn Sondek which cost me £76 at Trade Price bought through my employer. I thought that the Linn would wipe the proverbial floor with a BD1, reusing the same arm (SME3009) and cartridge (Shure V15II). Not a bit of it. Couldn't hear any difference, so concluded that the Linn was just hype as the BD1 was already Good Enough. So, for the last now almost 50 years I've worked on the basis that Good Enough is quite Good Enough, and I've bought functionality, not hype.

Hence my current main system of DIYed active B&W 801 driven by Behringer electronics, a Squeezebox Touch and a pair of vintage Broadcast turntables. My second system is DIYed valve amplifiers, and a third is a 1980s AIWA mini system that I love the looks of.

S.
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Love this as well, and absolutely love the story about the Linn :) Thanks for sharing that.

There's always that factor of aesthetics, unless you've a man cave and have no regard for visual appeal and make it all about the function over form. But even ugly things can have a sense of beauty. Why wouldn't an 18 inch driver in a large cabinet be appealing to an audio lovers space.

DIY is such an amazing way to make audio nirvana, trouble is even that's caught up to where components are expensive. General Joe are a lot of the time better off buying complete units and usually represent better value for money, factory finishes and have good resale values. Of course, you're not getting exactly what you want, but it's a nice package nonetheless. The used / flea market I think has always been king though, and if you buy something great you can even modify it further to give you that extra something. You can build an amazing and big system for very little cash that would compete at even the poshest of shows. It just might have a few turning their noses up, but who cares, in a blind unknowing test they might even enjoy or choose it more than their stately pile of equipment.
 
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I've never thought more money brought better ad infinitum. But I'm constantly surprised at how quickly the tipping point moves downwards in cash terms.
 
Absolutely from the point at which I found ASR!

Which is annoying, since I was firmly evidence-based and sceptical about most other things (cars, good wine etc) but had a huge blind spot with Hi-Fi

Better now
 
I was shocked, when I discovered that the person verbally ripping into someone who had critiqued a Fremer review in Stereophile, was in fact Fremer!
Further posts, revealed the existence of ASR. Since then, bliss. Thank you ASR!
 
Have’nt bought a cable since I found ASR. Got 40 years of them up in my surplus junk room. So glad to get off that upgrade train. This site though did cause me to find some revel salon 2’s, a purchase I will never regret.
 
artishard116 said:
Never. These things cost 6x what I paid for my first car :)

View attachment 466484

At least the "hi-fi" furniture was cheap...
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The more you look at it the more you appreciate the styling. It all comes together and is as good as the artwork displayed in the centre. I actually thought that was a TV at first perhaps with a nice surround, that just had a picture displayed on it :) Definitely put this down as a very cool setup though, all of it, certainly one of the most memorable Ive seen, you have great taste. Thanks for showing us :cool:
 
Westsounds said:
As title suggests when did you come to realise that it's not about the badge, or how much it costs. But for years you chased it, upgrade-itis, lusted after gear and chased false promises or suggestive information.

DACs for example can only get to a quality where your ears or measurement instruments can't differentiate, and it then becomes a personal preference or nuance in sound and effect you like. But the biggest factor probably being cost has no relation to ultimate quality. It usually cost more for better materials granted but not sound quality.

This isn't rocket science or magical mystics being generated it's basic consumer electronics. Would you agree?

Any factors that helped with your enlightenment, ASR perhaps, or owing infinite amounts of gear going around in circles?
Click to expand...

I love ASR because it gives me independent, credible measurements fr what, nearly two thousand of pieces of equipment? That said, I always checked specs and measurements. I have never owned a tube amp. I got rid of my turntable as soon as it was feasible. I got Accuphase equipment because it always measured "top of class" in German audio mags. And kept that equipment for 15 years or so without a sideway glance at anything else, but was a very early adopter of streaming - both in setting up a server at home (2004?) and ripping CDs, and then Pandora followed by others (Spotify since 2015 now). This all preceded ASR.

As to price - when I downsized after divorce, I wanted a more minimalist approach to life, and the big champagne Accuphase boxes didn't fit that vision, and especially not the big tower speakers. At first I did replace it with more compact yet costly boxes. But after a few years, they had issues and went to service. I replaced things -the intention was temporarily- with cheaper but [and this is where ASR comes in] capable equipment based on the measurements I saw in ASR. I did get the more expensive equipment back, but it now lives in storage. Very happy with what I have, totally suffices for my complete music enjoyment.

And I have definitely learned a lot about why I like certain things on ASR, and most importantly I have overcome several misconceptions I had through ASR - great tutorials. So thanks to ASR as well as the community that makes it, many awesomely well informed people here.
 
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Westsounds said:
The more you look at it the more you appreciate the styling. It all comes together and is as good as the artwork displayed in the centre. I actually thought that was a TV at first perhaps with a nice surround, that just had a picture displayed on it :) Definitely put this down as a very cool setup though, all of it, certainly one of the most memorable Ive seen, you have great taste. Thanks for showing us :cool:
Click to expand...

Thanks for the kind words! It actually is a TV... a large Samsung "Frame" variant. It does blend in nicely though when it's acting as a picture frame. I uploaded a bunch of artwork to it. That particular painting is one of my father's. Maybe I'll post some more photos once the renovations are further along. I'm doing all the work myself and preserving a lot of the old building's character/charm. It won't be a shiny white box when I'm done.

Here's my old setup. The 8361's are the best I've ever heard but the Neumanns were no slouches. I designed/built the rack unit and speaker stands.

Will quit hijacking your thread now.

IMG_5160.jpg
IMG_1929.jpg
 
For me I look at audio equipment as jewelry sometimes. I have no problem with a McIntosh rack if that’s what I want so long as it measures well. I’m definitely not a SINAD chaser or a believer that a speaker with a 6.8 vs a 6.2 Spin score is better for me and what those measurements actually mean. Some of the higher priced stuff is so nice. Who doesn’t like glowing meters? Or a 12 coat finish? But I have to give credit to Amir and this site for lifting the veils on quite a bit of garbage I might have wasted money on. I’ve learned a lot here and now I’m pretty confident knowing what I’m getting into. This site gets shit for being too focused on measurements. My guess is most people on this site have absolutely no problem with a $20k speaker that is up to snuff. And if you don’t want to spend that much, read a bit and find one that probably sounds just as good.
 
artishard116 said:
Thanks for the kind words! It actually is a TV... a large Samsung "Frame" variant. It does blend in nicely though when it's acting as a picture frame. I uploaded a bunch of artwork to it. That particular painting is one of my father's. Maybe I'll post some more photos once the renovations are further along. I'm doing all the work myself and preserving a lot of the old building's character/charm. It won't be a shiny white box when I'm done.

Here's my old setup. The 8361's are the best I've ever heard but the Neumanns were no slouches. I designed/built the rack unit and speaker stands.

Will quit hijacking your thread now.

View attachment 466819 View attachment 466820
Click to expand...
Oh, another nice setup there. Wow that TV looks great then, thought it was legit painting in frame from the photo, the art work was very nice as well, well done your Dad
 
I joined an audio club in my late 20’s that provided the opportunity to hear lots of different systems, some very very expensive.

I had the opportunity to hear Ken Fritz’s system on several occasions through the various iterations, as well as some other high dollar systems.

They were all very good, but not night and day better per se. Ken’s system and room was really an anomaly, let’s just get that out of the way - lol. It was just a very different experience.

This started making think about the speakers and room vs the equipment, etc. We would trade amps to experiment with and also had a great local dealer that loaned gear out freely.

As I experimented with my own system as well as DIY, I found equipment changes didn’t really make that much difference and over time I just slowly found a natural point of diminishing returns.
 
Groove01 said:
had the opportunity to hear Ken Fritz’s system on several occasions through the various iterations, as well as some other high dollar systems.
Click to expand...
Oh wow, you were lucky to experience that. I saw the story over on YouTube it was all quite an achievement. It was all really interesting and quite spectacular. I'm glad the story was shared and it gives a great outline on some of the extremes some can go to in this hobby.
 
Groove01 said:
joined an audio club in my late 20’s that provided the opportunity to hear lots of different systems, some very very expensive.
Click to expand...
Perhaps audio clubs were more of a thing where you were, but it wasn't really a huge consideration when I was getting into the hobby 40ish years ago. It's only the past few years there has been an opportunity to connect with others in such a way. I guess its always been a hobby as such but it was generally an activity where others would mainly keep it to themselves or if you were fortunate to live near other enthusiasts you'd share in the excitement, in an understated way, but it offten wouldnt be a big consideration. It was more just a side interest men would usually get tangled up in, and it is usually men. Kind of a sole activity where there'd be a lot of personal indulgence which would sometimes impress the freinds or acquaintances and perhaps they'd get the bug. But the internet has shown more of the popularity of it and showed it for the obsession it often can be. Trade shows aside there was never really the eclectic display of what went on with some. There's a great show in the UK though which was a result of the then Wigwam HiFi forum which brought a lot of these soles together in an enthusiasts generated public show. That show was basically like a classic car show, but brought the ordinary along with the extravagant in a display of how passionate people can get by this fascination with audio gear. It was quite eye opening when I discovered it.
 
Westsounds said:
Oh wow, you were lucky to experience that. I saw the story over on YouTube it was all quite an achievement. It was all really interesting and quite spectacular. I'm glad the story was shared and it gives a great outline on some of the extremes some can go to in this hobby.
Click to expand...
Yes, I’m not sure I really appreciated it fully at the time TBH, but it was an experience for sure! I wouldn’t say I knew Ken well, but was around him enough to have a lot of respect for him.

Me, a local dealer, and another guy in the biz formed the club and had about 25 active members. A mix of tube guys, SS guys, and vintage guys. We brought a few manufacturers in to talk to the group and had several very knowledgeable folks like Ken and others. For a relatively small town, Richmond VA had a pretty active HiFi scene and some great dealers. One dealer in particular is a great guy and I learned a ton from him! (He is also an accomplished Tech). He was the glue for the club.

Hearing lots of different systems from SETs w/Avangards to full Rowland systems w/electro statics to totally homebrew systems was really informative. Several guys were using DSP back then (early 2000’s) with 4 or 5 speakers. Was a really good mix of guys and experience levels.

This experience helps you narrow your focus through experience- yes mostly subjective, but useful and helps level set the “bias”. Maybe..? At least I feel like it did for me. Some of my favorite systems were not the most $$ ones.

Fun story - Our group conducted a double blind level matched CD player shoot out. I brought a cheapo Panasonic DVD player. Roughly 8 or so players ranging from my $60 to $$$.

The Panasonic came in 2nd - lol.

This was a formative moment TBH. I still have that player too :D. One of the members posted the results on AudioAsylum and it went pretty viral (viral wasn’t really a thing back then I guess) and people on AA started doing $$ mods on the DVD player - lol. Even saw a company offering an $800/$1000 modded version of it - lol.
 
More educated expense is better and isn't an illusion.
Blind expense based solely on the price tag being better never was an illusion to me, as for almost any kind of product.
 
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