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When 12 Gauge Wire is Not 12 Gauge
- Thread starter amirm
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OP
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- #42
Gosh, I had forgotten about that video!
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In our living room, the in-wall speaker wires are 14AWG. I think the installer used the brand called Structured Cable Products. They run up a side wall, under the crown molding at the wall-ceiling joint, and back down the side wall to terminals near the intended speaker locations. The front right run is probably around 20', and the front left run is roughly double. Wall terminals are Neutrik Speakon, with each 14AWG core going to a separate terminal to allow active biamping. The cables outside the wall are also 14AWG.
Long story short, I've used AVRs or pre-pros with Anthem ARC, Audyssey XT32, YPAO 3D, and Dirac Live. None of them have reported a difference in level between left and right front speakers. Nor have I ever subjectively noticed an image shift.
I would replace it with 14/4 cable, or 12/4 cable if runs are really long. The reason for 4-core is that will allow you to use a rack mounted DSP and amps for biamped speakers. If you think you might go really complicated, there is 8-core speaker wire from Mogami and others as well. Markertek is my usual source for speaker cable. They sell most of the their cables by the foot, so you don't have to buy a spool. Prices range from $1.50-$2.00 per foot for 14/4 or 12/4 from most brands. Mogami is a little more expensive. If you have 4S11 it is a good choice, unless you want the wire to be a little stiff to hold its shape over a longer straight run.
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
Archimago has an amusing article on rolling his own speaker cables from Canare 4S11:
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2014/10/diy-musings-bi-wired-canare-4s11-and.html
Some interesting quotes:
"The 4S11 cable consists of 4 conductors ("quad") under the sheath. Each multi-stranded conductor is 14AWG and a pair would be equivalent to 11AWG"
I'm not sure if he means a bi-wire pair or a standard pair.
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2014/10/diy-musings-bi-wired-canare-4s11-and.html
Some interesting quotes:
"The 4S11 cable consists of 4 conductors ("quad") under the sheath. Each multi-stranded conductor is 14AWG and a pair would be equivalent to 11AWG"
I'm not sure if he means a bi-wire pair or a standard pair.
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
This is an amazingly handy chart:
Two 14 AWG conductors in parallel provide roughly the same cross-sectional area as a single 11 AWG wire. Use the four wires as a single pair by putting two wires in parallel for the positive and negative connections.
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
That's what I do now.
OP
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- #48
I heard back from the shop and we use the Canare as far as 150 feet if feeding one speaker. If feeding two, we stop at 100 feet or so.
BTW, the Canare is not UL certified for in-wall use! We have gotten a case by case certification but Canare itself has not applied for certification.
BTW, the Canare is not UL certified for in-wall use! We have gotten a case by case certification but Canare itself has not applied for certification.
watchnerd
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #51
Yes.
The use of paralleled runs is a oft recommended practice. One even mentioned by Gene DelaSalla in a Audioholics video as a personal fav for the redundancy factor. See vid at 7:50
Currently available from Bluejean Cable for $1.53 a foot.
https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htm
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maxxevv
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Interesting tests.
Other than resistive/ impedance effects, noted that you have included capacitance ?
Was getting a little lost on reading about how capacitance can affect the sound in earphones and headphones and how some cable makers actually "tune" their characteristics of their cables.
I know it sounds like snake oil, I have my big question mark moment there too!
Have you considered a test in that regard to how the frequency response of speakers/headphones/earphones can/not be affected by capacitance?
It would be great to put the myth(s) to rest though.
Other than resistive/ impedance effects, noted that you have included capacitance ?
Was getting a little lost on reading about how capacitance can affect the sound in earphones and headphones and how some cable makers actually "tune" their characteristics of their cables.
I know it sounds like snake oil, I have my big question mark moment there too!
Have you considered a test in that regard to how the frequency response of speakers/headphones/earphones can/not be affected by capacitance?
It would be great to put the myth(s) to rest though.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #54
This test was conducted in the context of speaker wires. I did measure the capacitance and from that, we could compute the impedance. We would then need to compare that to the impedance of headphones. So I don't have anything definitive to share in that context. I will put it on my todo list to evaluate. 
rebbiputzmaker
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Bad wire can act like filters IMO, but that is really an extreme and not going to make a big difference for most people. Headphone cables maybe even less because you are dealing with such short distances. A very high C 50ft speaker will be different from a 3ft headphone cable. YMMV
maxxevv
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I have my skepticism too. As I have swapped out my stock earphone cables for so called 'upgrade' cables purely on the basis of better comfort and eliminating microphonics and I really can't hear a difference in sound signature between them and stock. Or at the very least, it wasn't significant enough for my ears to pick up.
There, out in the market are 3-digit and even 4-digit priced earphone ( yes, NOT headphone, NOT speaker either) cables where people claim that they can discern a different sound signature / render with these cables connected. I have not had the chance to try them to discern a difference of course.
On a separate but related note, there are recommendations for use of teflon coated cables over PP / PE / rubber coated insulation materials in speaker interconnect cables to maximise 'transparency'. It turns out that capacitance in cables is also correlated to the dielectric coefficient of the insulating material. Teflon or PTFE being possibly the lowest in the dielectric coefficient of the commonly used materials. So there was some scientific basis for it ( , or so it seems). Besides how the wires are weaved / braided, length, distance between opposing strands and all that "up in the air " stuff.
Hence, that's how things got me curious.
There, out in the market are 3-digit and even 4-digit priced earphone ( yes, NOT headphone, NOT speaker either) cables where people claim that they can discern a different sound signature / render with these cables connected. I have not had the chance to try them to discern a difference of course.
On a separate but related note, there are recommendations for use of teflon coated cables over PP / PE / rubber coated insulation materials in speaker interconnect cables to maximise 'transparency'. It turns out that capacitance in cables is also correlated to the dielectric coefficient of the insulating material. Teflon or PTFE being possibly the lowest in the dielectric coefficient of the commonly used materials. So there was some scientific basis for it ( , or so it seems). Besides how the wires are weaved / braided, length, distance between opposing strands and all that "up in the air " stuff.
Hence, that's how things got me curious.
I would have more faith in long established reputations of headphone mfrs than upstart add-on sellers re cable choice - unless factually proven otherwise.
maxxevv
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Its mostly about the curiosity regarding what's really the truth out there. As mentioned, I couldn't discern a distinct enough difference with a new cable for my earphones.
But when I delve deeper there is some plausible basis as to why Teflon coated cables are preferred for speaker cables, related to its dielectric coefficient.
But as always, subjective hearing is never reliable and that's why I wondered if this whole "cable causing colouring of sound" myth can be de-mystified.
But when I delve deeper there is some plausible basis as to why Teflon coated cables are preferred for speaker cables, related to its dielectric coefficient.
But as always, subjective hearing is never reliable and that's why I wondered if this whole "cable causing colouring of sound" myth can be de-mystified.
Forget about the material and construction details. It comes down to R,L and C of the conductor at audio transmission voltages and frequencies, and interface impedance characteristics. Don't overthink it.
So, do you also believe in teapots in space?
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