They look tinned. How do they do that?
Thinking about it, 1.65 feet of that 3200 strand has a mile of wire in it.
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When 12 Gauge Wire is Not 12 Gauge
- Thread starter amirm
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They look tinned. How do they do that?
Thinking about it, 1.65 feet of that 3200 strand has a mile of wire in it.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #22
I too wondered how you could have 3,200 bobbins spinning at the same time to make that wire. Then I realized, and you can see in the picture, that there are individual smaller bundles that are then put together to make the final product. So it is a cluster of cluster of wires that make up that many strands.
I take your math for it. If you look up the price, you see that even on ebay, and coming from China, these are very expensive wires. The specific wire that I posted was tested and it actually outperforms 6 gauge wire and it is closer to 5. Its insulation is also rated to 200 degrees.
I have looked high and low to try to find a cheaper price on these but it can't be done. High-strand, silicone wire is just expensive. It is even expensive in thinner gauges. But boy, is the stuff nice to work with. They are delightful to hold and bend with such ease.
1.65' * 3200 strands = 5280' = 1 mile
Might have to try this wire sometime...
Might have to try this wire sometime...
NorthSky
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The ones that did turn green (oxidation) were exposed to air (French doors nearby always open during the summer months), humidity and salted ocean air.
And the connectors (I put them myself) were the clamping type, with pliers, and the screw-on type.
They should have been soldered and covered with teflon or shrinking rubber tubing.
* The other day a small mouse chewed one of my wires, a small wire for my AC powered rabbit FM radio antenna. It is beyond repair...I need another AC powered cable transformer/adapter...roughly $20/30.
_________
My only experience with speaker wiring gauges of various constructions and prices; some seem to exorcise more clarity and bass.
Others are more reserved, and lacking details. Others are neutrally warm. Others are bright-fully revealing. I can tell their sound difference.
And I'm just a normal guy with normal ears. Those differences are not huge though, but they're distinctively there, when carefully listening.
Can they be measured? You betcha, with state-of-the-art measuring audio gear. The true audio scientists have access to that type of measuring gear.
My moto: the more thickness, including bi-wiring and bi-amping, the less hurt, the less damage we might encounter.
You get what you pay for, and much much more.
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Amir, how did you come to the conclusion that 12 AWG is large enough? I know that too small (diameter) of a cable can cause issues, but are there situations in which too large of a cable can cause issues in either speaker or interconnect?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #26
This is in regards to speaker cables. Factors that go into it are:
1. Research shows that the threshold of hearing of resonances in low frequencies is 0.5 db. That is, we can detect when the frequency response varies by 0.5 db or more. Source: Sean Olive and Floyd Toole
2. Assumption about the maximum (roundtrip) length of typical speaker cable in home systems. (22 feet or 44 feet round trip)
3. Typical resistance of 12 gauge wire (4.01 milliohms)
4. Nominal impedance of speaker in low frequencies (3 ohm)
Using the above, we see that for 22 feet of 12 gauge wire, the drop is at the threshold level of 0.5 db. If your run is longer than this, then you need to use even thicker gauge.
In other words, for most people, 12 gauge wire has less impact than 0.5 db and as such it is a safe choice.
1. Research shows that the threshold of hearing of resonances in low frequencies is 0.5 db. That is, we can detect when the frequency response varies by 0.5 db or more. Source: Sean Olive and Floyd Toole
2. Assumption about the maximum (roundtrip) length of typical speaker cable in home systems. (22 feet or 44 feet round trip)
3. Typical resistance of 12 gauge wire (4.01 milliohms)
4. Nominal impedance of speaker in low frequencies (3 ohm)
Using the above, we see that for 22 feet of 12 gauge wire, the drop is at the threshold level of 0.5 db. If your run is longer than this, then you need to use even thicker gauge.
In other words, for most people, 12 gauge wire has less impact than 0.5 db and as such it is a safe choice.
What are your thoughts about sizing cable to reduce eddy currents and in turn distortion? Have you measured noise levels in higher AWG cables compared to lower AWG?
Here's a description of what I'm referring to.
Essentially, using Ohm's Law, a wire table with resistance values, and the resistance of the speaker, and an idea about the audibility of volume level changes.
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When a voltage (amplifier output) is applied to a series of resistances (and/or reactances if being picky) the voltage will be divided among them according to:
Voltage = Current Flow x Resistance (and or Reactance)
If less voltage reaches the speaker due to loss in the cable , less "power" is available to the speaker, because some is "wasted" in the cable.
The cable and the speaker become the elements of a Voltage Divider.
Power = Voltage x Current
And, a little decibel math to decide if the difference - loss in the cable vs theoretical no loss - would likely be audible, and if so, significant, according to generally accepted "Can you hear me now?" testing results and personal choice.
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-gainloss.htm
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-540-68888-4_7
My 2AWG is simply overkill for a five foot cable set (biwired, no less), because my electrostats can be a little power hungry, and all the components were available in my scrap pile.
That's a cool demonstration.
Fortunately our systems don't operate by attempting to move large copper slugs around in even larger hollow copper conductors.
I think we can all agree our systems don't operate exactly like that. It was a visual demonstration. Comparisons can be challenging when the imagination is involved. I'll take it you have no knowledge or insight on the subject or else you would have said something helpful like in the previous post. That was much appreciated, thanks.
I take it since you're using 2 AWG cables you either don't agree with the idea of eddy currents or you know nothing about them. I admittedly know nothing about them and have no opinion yet. I came across this theory when searching for an adequate tonearm cable which transfers a very small voltage. I was wondering if there could be any truth to eddy currents in audio.
Well...
I wouldn't dare to disagree with the "idea" of eddy currents. That the phenomenon exists seems to be beyond reproach.
However, I have not noticed any audio issues here which have led me to be concerned about it in either power-carrying (speaker) nor signal (interconnect) cables.
I have only one tonearm cable here, and it has been idle since 1974.
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Ray, if you fire that tonearm cable up after all this time, the re-break-in period will be brutal.
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Those eddy currents are also called focault currents. It is why AC power transformers are laminated. It prevents too much heating from the eddy currents in the steel laminations. The effect is much less in copper than steel. The magnetic permeability of steel is several thousand times higher than for copper. I haven't given it a tremendous amount of thought in audio terms. One can easily measure vanishingly low distortion in cables. As in the lowest distorting pieces of gear you can find and hook it up with cable and see if heavier cable raises distortion which is already so low it nearly is buried in the noise floor. I don't think I have done that with anything larger than 12 gauge. At least at 12 gauge distortion isn't an issue.
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I think you need to put this into context. Have a think about what level of current that is flowing in an audio cable (particularly interconnect) to generate a magnetic field in the first place.
if you are concerned about it in speakers cables where the current is higher, then again you need to have a think about how much distortion the speaker itself is creating. Could easily be over 1%, particularly at lower frequencies.
Then of course think about how much difference a slightly larger guage of cable is going to make.
The video is another perfect example of real world effects being extrapolated as being relevant in audio and hifi when they are not.
As has been sort of stated already, its a non issue.
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #35
Sure. Eddy currents are the reason the famous "skin effect" exists. From the wiki page there is this helpful graph which looks similar like what is shown in the video:
As frequencies go up/wavelength gets smaller, those eddy currents form in different directions in the center of the wire as opposed to outside. This means that the direction of eddy currents is with the current we want to push into the wire, and the opposite in the other direction causing increased resistance/losses.
Given that, we can compute the skin depth at various frequencies for our audio cables. Assuming copper wire at 20 degree C, and considering that most of the energy in music is between 20 and 500 Hz, we get the following depths: sqrt(p/(pi()uf))
20 Hz = 0.6 inches (1.45 centimeter)
500 Hz = 0.1 inches (0.29 centimeter)
Diameter of 12 gauge wire is about .08 inches so its entire depth will be used for transmission of music even at 500 Hz.
So nothing new here really. Skin effect with respect to transmission of audio is not a concern.
I think I saw an in-room increase of a dB or two around 20kHz when I went from the 18AWG experiment to the 2AWG. I don't remember whether or not I was surprised. Without touching anything else, a before/after measurement was on my screen for a while.
The electrostats are heading way down in their impedance around there, so it might just be a resistance thing.
This is from the prior but very similar model:
Not that it would make any difference to my own audible enjoyment.
My old favorite cables were solid core, about 12AWG, ethernet(?) distribution coax pulled out of a scrap pile in 1995 or so..
The jacket is a nice bright yellow, and, besides, who else has NEC branded speaker cables with the old Western Electric font?
The electrostats are heading way down in their impedance around there, so it might just be a resistance thing.
This is from the prior but very similar model:
Not that it would make any difference to my own audible enjoyment.
My old favorite cables were solid core, about 12AWG, ethernet(?) distribution coax pulled out of a scrap pile in 1995 or so..
The jacket is a nice bright yellow, and, besides, who else has NEC branded speaker cables with the old Western Electric font?
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
How far can you safely run a quality in-wall cable like the Canare 4S11?
I know it's an 'it depends' answer, but we'll just assume it's with an amp with relatively low output impedance (say, Class D-ish) and the speakers are 6-8 ohm with no exotic dips.
The reason I ask: my new house is pre-wired with speaker jacks all over the place, but the previous owner used skinny lamp cord type stuff. I might want to upgrade the wiring (it runs in the crawl space).
I know it's an 'it depends' answer, but we'll just assume it's with an amp with relatively low output impedance (say, Class D-ish) and the speakers are 6-8 ohm with no exotic dips.
The reason I ask: my new house is pre-wired with speaker jacks all over the place, but the previous owner used skinny lamp cord type stuff. I might want to upgrade the wiring (it runs in the crawl space).
OP
- Thread Starter
- #38
We have done some high-end homes with but I don't know the lengths. Let me ask and get back to you.
This is a worthwhile read: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm and more specifically http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#wiretable
That table is based upon loss only. Speaker crossovers generally assume a zero-home (or nearly) voltage source so long wire runs can change the frequency response. How much and if it is audible depends on the speakers, your hearing, etc. Note Canare 4S11 is four 14 AWG wires, suitable for a pair of speakers. Also note that, if the runs are to "background" speakers or otherwise non-critical then you can get away with longer runs.
HTH - Don
That table is based upon loss only. Speaker crossovers generally assume a zero-home (or nearly) voltage source so long wire runs can change the frequency response. How much and if it is audible depends on the speakers, your hearing, etc. Note Canare 4S11 is four 14 AWG wires, suitable for a pair of speakers. Also note that, if the runs are to "background" speakers or otherwise non-critical then you can get away with longer runs.
HTH - Don
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
Okay, it looks like the Canare 4S11 (which is also my normal, 'outside the wall', speaker cable, configured in a star quad) will be just fine over the distances involved.
