What's your vote for where the Law of Diminishing returns starts for tower speakers?

[2Sunny]

I was wanting to keep my previous post slightly shorter, but I do understand that bass output would most definitely be different and perhaps this is not truly fair, but my assumption is that one would always use a sub to handle frequencies below 80 Hz because even the best towers won't handle the lows as well as a sub, but then that sorta blows the whole concept of getting speakers for less than $1k out the window.

 

[Blumlein 88]

One thing is to learn that on axis flatness doesn't tell the whole story, but is a good starting point. You really should read Toole's book. A certain off axis directivity, and an absence of resonances are important. Another thing worth noting is Harman says they test all of their designs against each other and similarly priced competitors (obviously they cannot test every speaker in the world at each price point). So for instance they have blind tested enough to know that a Salon will do better than the F36. The knowledge they have acquired lets them make even inexpensive speakers perform unusually well, but a Salon will beat an F36. And since many still do not use this approach to design that Harman and others have adapted you can likely find $5k and $10k speakers you would not prefer to your F36 blind.

Having heard, used, owned or know people with a variety of speakers from Harman and others, I can tell you the F35 (just below the F36) gets you off the bottom of the curve of quality. And at least on up to the $5k plus Harman speakers (Revel and JBL) you'll hear improvements. They however aren't the level of relative improvement you heard going from the Klipsch to the F36. So F36 and above you are getting onto the flattening part of the curve.

There are speakers that cost $10k or more that are definitely going to be better than the F36. I don't know how the result would be for top of the line Genelec, Revel, KEF or others who use spinorama measurements as guidelines to design speakers.

There was a fairly extensive blind test of Revel Ultima Salon 2 speakers and JBL M2 speakers by the AVS forum back in 2017.

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/speaker-shootout-two-of-the-most-accurate-and-well-reviewed-speakers-ever-made.2907816/

These were the top two speakers from the Harman company. Though some indication is the Revel F328Be is now their best Revel. In any case, it was close to a wash with the Salon 2 being slightly preferred. Salon 2 at the time were $22k/pair and the M2 was $12k/pair, but require certain other electronics which could make the prices almost the same. So among Harman designs maybe this is getting to where it is difficult to hear a difference. Doesn't mean some others might not do better like Genelec or Neumann or others. I would note that these were auditioned in stereo which would reduce the sensitivity to speaker quality somewhat. My expectations are that there is more of a difference between the F36 and the F208s ($5k per pair list price) than between the F208 and any other Revel speakers (but I don't know this for a fact).

You can read here about someone who had the Revel F206, F208 and Salon speakers. All in the same room at the same time. He says he heard a difference and the Salon were the best of those. However the differences were slight enough, he kept the F206 pair and sold the rest.

Why didn't I like my Revel Performa 3 F206 Towers?

I'm just curious what your opinion might be. I just sold my Revel Performa 3 F206 because I just couldn't get myself to like them. I don't know a lot about sensitivity For speakers, But 87db doesn't seem very low from what i've read. The Revels seemed to need a lot volume to bring out detail...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[boxerfan88]

FR charts are FR charts, they only tell part of the story. We must go listen to the speakers themselves.

That is why I like to attend HiFi shows to listen to various speakers. Cheap vs. expensive. Box vs. Open Baffle vs. Omni. Coil driver vs. Ribbon vs. Horn. 2-way vs 3/4-way. Narrow directivity vs. wide directivity. Each design type has it’s own characteristics. It’ll boil down to one owns preferences. I’m told some own different speaker types to enjoy the differing presentation types.

HiFi showrooms aren’t ideal but if one can listen relatively nearfield, it gives a good idea about the speaker performance & it’s characteristics.

Personally, i believe at this time speakers makes the most difference to audio quality, followed by the room. All the other stuff upstream is pretty much a solved problem.

 

[MattHooper]

It is mushy, lol. I am curious where your experience has put you regarding how much you spend on towers to gain the incremental improvements in sound quality you value?

My last 3 tower speakers have been Thiel 3.7, the slightly smaller Thiel 2.7, and my most recent purchase and easily most expensive have been my Joseph Audio Perspective 2 graphene speakers. All bought secondhand.

The Thiel 3.7s cost me $6,500USD ($8,130 CAD).

Those were a bit too big aesthetically for my room, and I eventually replaced them with the next size down 2.7 model, which I got for a steal, and which I still own.

But I really put my money where my mouth is when purchasing the Joseph Audio Perspective speakers… floor models from my local dealer. And then I later upgraded them to the newer drivers and crossovers. In total over time that hovered around $15,000 CAD.
(The speakers new cost $21,000 CAD.).
That’s way more than I ever spent on any piece of gear. Which is obviously a lot for a 36 inch high 2.5 way loudspeaker.

But I shopped relentlessly for two years listening to everything I could… Magico, Revel, Kii Audio 3, Paradigm, Vivid Audio, Spendor, Monitor audio, Focal, Raidho, Audio Physic… the list was very long.

Some speakers did certain things better than others, none of them had the
“ grab me by the collar and sit me down mesmerized to listen all day” factor of the Joseph speakers. It wasn’t due to some huge advantage in the Joseph speakers.
I could see people picking any number of cheaper speakers they might’ve liked better.

It was just that to my ears the Joseph’s had a level of clean, grain-free purity of tone, and an un-mechanical smoothness that made voices and instrument mesmerizing through those speakers. Even when all sorts of instruments are layered on top of each other, even very similar sounding instruments, you can easily hear the different timbral qualities of each instrument in that layer. Each time I went to other speakers, they sounded a tiny bit more crude and just didn’t do it for me.

So it’s a sort of small difference… it’s one cited by many others who opted for Joseph speakers, but it’s subjective significance to me was really big and worth paying for. So was the form factor, which solved the room aesthetics issue.

I’m not even sure that I would say that the Joseph speakers are “better” than the Thiel 2.7s which I got it much lower cost. It’s more that they are different (though I do find overall the Joseph tone and detail more refined).

So for me, the speakers are lifelong keepers.
It was worth all the legwork to get exactly what I wanted. I have some older cheaper speakers that I still love that I sometimes throw into the system. And at times I get a feeling of “ this is so good, do I really need anything more than this?” But after a while I start to miss the refinement and sometimes realism from my more expensive loudspeakers. And I realize I’m glad I sprung for those more expensive speakers.

Just for kicks, here’s a show video of the smaller Joseph Pulsar speakers reproducing one of the tiny desk musical performances.
Of course it is silly to imagine you can evaluate the loudspeaker through YouTube.
But I still find a hint of the sound that I enjoy from my speakers… I find in that video there is a bit more of a “ could’ve been a recording of musicians playing in that room” rather than “ coming from loudspeakers.”

 

[Heinrich]

Further I believed then and still believe now that there are speakers out there for about $1k that are so good that in a blind test audiophiles would pick them over much more expensive speakers.

But that is very different from what some people have made of it. A highly selected model should be compared against any other. In a blind test, i.e. without taking appearance into account. Then you have to ask in which room size and so on.

Regarding the motivation of the question, yes, there are some models that try new things and cost a lot of money. I've forgotten the names, but so what? From 10k it starts with a lot of magic, but the results are not any better than the standards at a fifth of the price.

Then there's also plenty of nonsense, for example and not exclusively, from France. Looks technically pretty, has esoteric metals somewhere, but is simply mediocre at best. Neuman, Genelec and to some extent KEF set standards that are hard to beat, especially considering the price.

If you rightly go much cheaper, you don't get “everything”, but it's usually enough. At the latest after you have forgotten the excitement of the hunt and simply listen to your records. That's where I stand, if you're interested, 1k (pair) for full satisfaction after careful selection in the special offer. Quite by chance a high performer in relation to Olive's ordinal scale.

 

[Heinrich]

So for instance they have blind tested enough to know that a Salon will do better than the F36.

Is that true, or just a suggestion?

There are speakers that cost $10k or more that are definitely going to be better than the F36.

Which, and by what objective data?

... hear a difference.

It's about preference, right?

 

[2Sunny]

This is a double post so if you are reading my "Mind Blown" thread please disregard.



Okay I'm down to two choices to test more expensive speakers, and I'd like to know people's opinion on these two choices. Again the purpose is purely academic to see if I can hear any difference from my current Revel F36s just for curiousity's sake, but of course since I intend to purchase these I expect I will be keeping them in my HT which consists of the following (not including the towers): 5.2.4, Ascend Acoustics Duo V2 LCR center, Revel M16 rear surrounds, SVS Prime Elevation (2 front heights), Klipsch RP-500SA (2 rear height), dual SVS SB-1000 Pro subs, connected to a Sony STR-AZ5000ES AVR, and an OutLaw 5000x amp, and the room is 20' x 15' x 9'.

So the choices are:

Ascend Acoustics ELX w/ Titan Dome
Revel F208

I'm leaning towards the Ascend Acoustics for 3 reasons. 1) Amir gave them a perfect preference number of 7.0 whilst the F208 got a 6.6, 2) I'd like to try a non-Revel product, and 3) they're much lighter so moving them around is something I can do by myself not true of the F208s, but the Revel has 2 advantages in my mind, 1) bigger 8 inch woofers which I presume will translate in to slightly better low end response while watching movies using all 9 speakers, and 2) it IS a Revel so a very goodand direct comparison to it's cheaper brother.

So . . . what says the forum?

And, please no offense, but I'd appreciate comments on the system components be left for another discussion. I'm just interested in folks opinion on the two choices.

 

[goldark]

This is a double post so if you are reading my "Mind Blown" thread please disregard.



Okay I'm down to two choices to test more expensive speakers, and I'd like to know people's opinion on these two choices. Again the purpose is purely academic to see if I can hear any difference from my current Revel F36s just for curiousity's sake, but of course since I intend to purchase these I expect I will be keeping them in my HT which consists of the following (not including the towers): 5.2.4, Ascend Acoustics Duo V2 LCR center, Revel M16 rear surrounds, SVS Prime Elevation (2 front heights), Klipsch RP-500SA (2 rear height), dual SVS SB-1000 Pro subs, connected to a Sony STR-AZ5000ES AVR, and an OutLaw 5000x amp, and the room is 20' x 15' x 9'.

So the choices are:

Ascend Acoustics ELX w/ Titan Dome
Revel F208

I'm leaning towards the Ascend Acoustics for 3 reasons. 1) Amir gave them a perfect preference number of 7.0 whilst the F208 got a 6.6, 2) I'd like to try a non-Revel product, and 3) they're much lighter so moving them around is something I can do by myself not true of the F208s, but the Revel has 2 advantages in my mind, 1) bigger 8 inch woofers which I presume will translate in to slightly better low end response while watching movies using all 9 speakers, and 2) it IS a Revel so a very goodand direct comparison to it's cheaper brother.

So . . . what says the forum?

And, please no offense, but I'd appreciate comments on the system components be left for another discussion. I'm just interested in folks opinion on the two choices.

Not the exact speakers you're considering but I own the Ascend Sierra LX and also Revel F206 and Revel M16's. I prefer the LX to both of them, although they're all excellent.

 

[Mart68]

They probably so close as to make little difference as part of a multi-speaker HT set up. I'd go with the Ascend as they look better (to me) or failing that whichever is cheaper.

 

[mj30250]

This is a double post so if you are reading my "Mind Blown" thread please disregard.



Okay I'm down to two choices to test more expensive speakers, and I'd like to know people's opinion on these two choices. Again the purpose is purely academic to see if I can hear any difference from my current Revel F36s just for curiousity's sake, but of course since I intend to purchase these I expect I will be keeping them in my HT which consists of the following (not including the towers): 5.2.4, Ascend Acoustics Duo V2 LCR center, Revel M16 rear surrounds, SVS Prime Elevation (2 front heights), Klipsch RP-500SA (2 rear height), dual SVS SB-1000 Pro subs, connected to a Sony STR-AZ5000ES AVR, and an OutLaw 5000x amp, and the room is 20' x 15' x 9'.

So the choices are:

Ascend Acoustics ELX w/ Titan Dome
Revel F208

I'm leaning towards the Ascend Acoustics for 3 reasons. 1) Amir gave them a perfect preference number of 7.0 whilst the F208 got a 6.6, 2) I'd like to try a non-Revel product, and 3) they're much lighter so moving them around is something I can do by myself not true of the F208s, but the Revel has 2 advantages in my mind, 1) bigger 8 inch woofers which I presume will translate in to slightly better low end response while watching movies using all 9 speakers, and 2) it IS a Revel so a very goodand direct comparison to it's cheaper brother.

So . . . what says the forum?

And, please no offense, but I'd appreciate comments on the system components be left for another discussion. I'm just interested in folks opinion on the two choices.

As someone who has spend a lot of time with somewhat similar speakers (Ascend ELX ribbons and Revel F226Bes) I'd personally go with Ascend.

And at the risk of ignoring your request, you may find that the Duo V2 center - while truly excellent for its diminutive size - is appreciably outclassed by the ELXs. The ELX Horizon is a far more capable center and would be a much better match, but I also understand that its additional cost and/or size may take it out of the running. As a potential compromise, you might look into a single LX bookshelf as a center if you can't accommodate the Horizon.

 

[2Sunny]

As someone who has spend a lot of time with somewhat similar speakers (Ascend ELX ribbons and Revel F226Bes) I'd personally go with Ascend.

And at the risk of ignoring your request, you may find that the Duo V2 center - while truly excellent for its diminutive size - is appreciably outclassed by the ELXs. The ELX Horizon is a far more capable center and would be a much better match, but I also understand that its additional cost and/or size may take it out of the running. As a potential compromise, you might look into a single LX bookshelf as a center if you can't accommodate the Horizon.

Yes, sadly there's nothing more that I would like than to get rid of the entertainment center and use the blank wall which would allow many an improvement, but alas for reasons of maintaining marital bliss such is not the case so I'm relegated to center speakers that must be less than 22" x 9" x 7" max, and the Duo's were the best I found

 

[Blumlein 88]

Is that true, or just a suggestion?


Which, and by what objective data?


It's about preference, right?

Yes it is true. Yes $10 k Revels are blind tested to be better than the F36. It is likely other $10 k speakers that follow the idea behind the spin testing standard are also better than the F36. Such testing is an international standard now though not all brands follow that standard.

 

[Heinrich]

Yes it is true. Yes $10 k Revels are blind tested to be better than the F36. It is likely other $10 k speakers that follow the idea behind the spin testing standard are also better than the F36. Such testing is an international standard now though not all brands follow that standard.

So, which measures made the Salons come out "better"? More bracing in the enclosure, less distortion by better motors, or is it a diamond tweeter, or simply a more carefully designed crossover? Where did the money go? Is the extended quality in craftmanship and engineering worth the sky rocketing prices? I'm afraid with many exclusive models on the maker's side little effort shows exploding returns. You only have to find someone else to accept the price, not me.

May I also ask by how much "better" the other is? I would like to compare the how much better to money, hence I need a one-dimensional number, not a vector or a matrix.

 

[Blumlein 88]

So, which measures made the Salons come out "better"? More bracing in the enclosure, less distortion by better motors, or is it a diamond tweeter, or simply a more carefully designed crossover? Where did the money go? Is the extended quality in craftmanship and engineering worth the sky rocketing prices? I'm afraid with many exclusive models on the maker's side little effort shows exploding returns. You only have to find someone else to accept the price, not me.

May I also ask by how much "better" the other is? I would like to compare the how much better to money, hence I need a one-dimensional number, not a vector or a matrix.

We have a few of these type threads concurrently at the moment. So I'm not sure which I've posted what in. However, I've said you don't get twice the sound for twice the money. I don't think you get twice the sound quality for 10 times the money. As for what made the Salon come out better in the ways you ask I don't know. The point being that Revel tests these, and for all we know tested other configurations that didn't come out better. They use it to see if the results are worth more money. As to how much improvement is in a product 10 times more I don't know. That is what diminishing returns means. If Revel knows its $10k speaker is better than other $10k speakers that is probably enough for having good entries in that market.

Even speakers are complex enough you are never getting a one dimensional number to answer your question. You are being unrealistic in that. You keep looking for exploding returns and in the real world it is going to be the opposite. A super easy to see issue is max loudness levels for different size rooms can be part of price and in theory could be the only difference in quality. One is going to cost more than the other. If you have a small room the extra money is wasted, while if you have a large room it could be a valuable improvement.

As to what is known the Salon would play louder, lower, with lower distortion. It's off axis response was closer to what is preferred. Even so would it be preferred in a small apartment or bedroom studio? Possibly not. What info we have gets us a significant step closer to what you are asking for than was ever the case in the past. A simple single quality number isn't available and may never be. The preference score is put in that role by many and it isn't quite fit for that purpose. The people who developed it warn about misusing it that way. You can keep complaining it isn't perfect or not enough so of no use or you can make use of what it can be helpful with.

This page is helpful for understanding the uses of spin data without reading a whole book.

Spinorama CEA 2034-A-2015 (ANSI) data format

Objective loudspeaker measurement data - how to find it, how to interpret it, how to choose speakers based on the data.

speakerdata2034.blogspot.com

 

[2Sunny]

As someone who has spend a lot of time with somewhat similar speakers (Ascend ELX ribbons and Revel F226Bes) I'd personally go with Ascend.

And at the risk of ignoring your request, you may find that the Duo V2 center - while truly excellent for its diminutive size - is appreciably outclassed by the ELXs. The ELX Horizon is a far more capable center and would be a much better match, but I also understand that its additional cost and/or size may take it out of the running. As a potential compromise, you might look into a single LX bookshelf as a center if you can't accommodate the Horizon.

The majority of folks that have replied here and on AVS are leaning towards the ELX towers. Just wondering though. Looking at the Spinorama data for it vs. the F208s the ELX's seem to actually be superior at the low end and Ascend says in their marketing material:

"Dual 6” LX woofers with class-leading excursion handle the low end but don’t let the small size fool you, our ELX will deliver tight, accurate and punchy bass well into the mid 20Hz range in most rooms. Many listeners will prefer to simply run the ELX full range with no subwoofer – the bass response will shock you."

First what was your experience regarding bass in comparison to the F226Be's and second do you feel there is truth to the marketing boast?

 

[a4eaudio]

The F208s have a F6 of 27 Hz while the ELX towers have an F6 of 31 Hz. Two 8 inch woofers will move about 45-50% more air than two 6 inch woofers. I'd think the Revels will win the bass shootout.

However, the Revels are using basically SB Acoustics aluminum drivers that are very good for the money. Whereas Ascend is using Seas drivers that are simply very good. Of course, that is where the "diminishing returns" comes in. Using better drivers doesn't guarantee better results, but in this case we know Ascend has implemented them well, so I'd expect them to perform/sound better. Whether it is significantly better or barely distinguishable of course is the dilemma that you are trying to solve.

 

[mj30250]

The majority of folks that have replied here and on AVS are leaning towards the ELX towers. Just wondering though. Looking at the Spinorama data for it vs. the F208s the ELX's seem to actually be superior at the low end and Ascend says in their marketing material:

"Dual 6” LX woofers with class-leading excursion handle the low end but don’t let the small size fool you, our ELX will deliver tight, accurate and punchy bass well into the mid 20Hz range in most rooms. Many listeners will prefer to simply run the ELX full range with no subwoofer – the bass response will shock you."

First what was your experience regarding bass in comparison to the F226Be's and second do you feel there is truth to the marketing boast?

I'd say there is some truth to that marketing statement, although for me I still use subwoofers.

The ELXs are easily more stout with bass than the F226Bes, both in output and extension. Even when using subs and high-passing at 80Hz, the ELXs were still appreciably "punchier" and more dynamic in my room. I can't speak to the F208s as I never auditioned them in my house, but I'd expect them to close some (all?) of the bass gap with the larger woofers and cabinets.

 

[2Sunny]

Sadly looks like my hand is being forced. The Ascend Acoustic ELX towers are on back order until May where as the F208s are available now. I know . . . first world problems

 

[mj30250]

I know it can be (extremely) difficult to wait, but are you planning on keeping these speakers for many years? If so, an extra couple of months is nothing.

 

[2Sunny]

@mj30250 This is gonna sound a bit weird, but the true story is that with all the changes I made recently my wife would have a cow if she was here when I took out the Revel's I just put in and put in something else, but she's leaving for a week on April 1 to visit her sister in South Carolina so I need to get this done while she's gone. I certainly get what you're saying, but I'm pretty sure I won't regret having F208s instead of ELX's