What's your vote for where the Law of Diminishing returns starts for tower speakers?

[JustAnAudioLover]

I'd say that the diminishing returns start as low as ~$800.

Take a good $800 pair of towers, compare them to $1600 towers. Are the latter 2x better? Certainly not. They may be considerably better, but not twice as much better. (Even though it's obviously difficult to quantize quality).

Now the "sweet spot" where you get both excellent sound quality and a not-too-high price would be around the $2000~$3000 mark for me. This is where you start getting some seriously impressive stuff.

 

[thewas]

The step, though, from that up to my 1k (2k regularly) pair

Would you like to share what it is?

 

[Heinrich]

Would you like to share what it is?

It's not that interesting. I love those speakers of mine, and I'm satisfied. A great success.

My objective was to (a) think from the other side of the spectrum, and (b) to point to a problems with the scales.
(a) do I feel to have paid too much; is there any desire left for more; which feature might be dispensable
(b) there is no measurable (!) relation between price and quality, because quality is not expressed in algebraically accessible numbers, hence 'diminishing returns' as a term doesn't make sense

 

[Blumlein 88]

I'm finally satisfied, and as said, don't long for more ever. That logically also says, I personally would not get "more" of something if I would spend extra. Not 'diminishing returns', but 'no returns'. I love to approve my decision to buy them

You haven't said what speaker you have. It does not follow logically that you would get nothing more from a better speaker even if you don't long for more.

 

[Heinrich]

You haven't said what speaker you have. It does not follow logically that you would get nothing more from a better speaker even if you don't long for more.

See my reply one above. It follows logically, no?! It is all about my personal preferrence. If I'm done, I won't feel better with something else. So there is nothing better, subjectively. We should take the meaning of a preferrence scale more seriously.

In that exceptional case the term of 'diminishing returns' for more money makes sense: no returns. I think at 4k you are ready to go, no need to think anymore. Except stereo shopping is a hobby. O/k, I may be a bit humble in comparison

 

[Blumlein 88]

See my reply one above. It follows logically, no?! It is all about my personal preferrence. If I'm done, I won't feel better with something else. So there is nothing better, subjectively. We should take the meaning of a preferrence scale more seriously.

In that exceptional case the term of 'diminishing returns' for more money makes sense: no returns.

You might find there is something better. This is not like DAC's where performance is beyond audibility. If you are satisfied that is good, if you don't wish to spend more that is fine. That is not the same as there being nothing that is better.

 

[eddantes]

I've posted these pics on other threads, apologies for redundancy, but captures my personal "diminishing returns" epiphany.

I had the Salon2, F208 & F206 in the same room, at the same time to compare. It was an insightful, though subjective experience. In short, there were no surprises as to good, better, best, the Salon2's were everything that they are said to be. However, the cost of diminishing returns was eye opening. I paid $12k for the Salons, $2500 for the 208's and $1200 for the 206's, all used. I kept the 206's for the great sound and superior value and sold the others. They are the mains in both my 2 channel and HT setups. I put the saved funds into long term T Bonds.

View attachment 437701

I would further add... That once you have done a comparisson like @Astoneroad, you can refer back to Spinorama and use it to estimate if you need to go "up" in $$$. One thing that Spinorama won't tell you though: the differences in compression and distortion, but those factors only really come into effect at rather loud volumes. For me 80db average at 2+ meters is pretty damn loud, so I never bother with looking at the 96db level (yes, yes, transient peaks and all that).

Looking at these charts... And considering the abovementioned comparisson decision that @Astoneroad came to - I'm not sure I need to upgrade. If I do - it's because I have $ that I couldn't put to better use (unlikely).

 

[Astoneroad]

View attachment 437917

I would further add... That once you have done a comparisson like @Astoneroad, you can refer back to Spinorama and use it to estimate if you need to go "up" in $$$. One thing that Spinorama won't tell you though: the differences in compression and distortion, but those factors only really come into effect at rather loud volumes. For me 80db average at 2+ meters is pretty damn loud, so I never bother with looking at the 96db level (yes, yes, transient peaks and all that).

View attachment 437920
Looking at these charts... And considering the abovementioned comparisson decision that @Astoneroad came to - I'm not sure I need to upgrade. If I do - it's because I have $ that I couldn't put to better use (unlikely).

The excitement of upgrading is addictive, imho. However, the satisfaction of having jumped off the gear carousel is much longer term and financially sustainable. When the difference is 10x the $$$, Salon vs. 206, and you can hear side by side what you get for that multiple, if money is no object I guess go for it. However, even then, my sense of value and, dare I say frugality, would gnaw at me while listening. It's been 2 years since that pic and sale of the Salons and 208s and it makes me smile that I made the choice that I did and have the systems that I have. It comes down to individual sense of value.

I recently started a thread on Value Rigidity that fleshes this out more. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/value-rigidity.61494/

 

[ryanosaur]

It’s not s hard line, but around $4K is where I see most true quality changes stop occurring in lieu of more aesthetic or simply more outlandish features. The truth is that there are some very good options still available for half that much, but above 4K, the improvements are mostly very incremental.

I wish I could swap out pairs of Speakers like some I know. 4K is still a lot to me. But on a 10yr scale it’s quite reasonable. Beyond that, for me, purchases begin taking on an aspect of luxury (8-10K).

 

[Koeitje]

Last months Im dealing with reconstruction and furniture of my sister apartament - prices , (especially for qualified work) are so high, that I cant imagine a well executed cabinet with top-notch finish to cost less than 1k -minimum. So for a great floorstanders starting point of the production cost is around 2.5k euro, then come drivers,crossovers ..etc.

This is 100% a factor, the difference in finish between different pieces of furniture can be massive. So when talking about diminishing returns, are we talking about audio or the rest? I've been looking at some simple chairs, and I can easily see the difference between a €200 IKEA chair and a similar model that is €800 from another manufacturer. But the step to a €1500 model was much smaller.

 

[Heinrich]

You might find there is something better. This is not like DAC's where performance is beyond audibility. If you are satisfied that is good, if you don't wish to spend more that is fine. That is not the same as there being nothing that is better.

Wait, preferrence denial? No, there is nothing better for me subjectively, and the rest follows logically.

If you refer to the Olive scale as a measure of "better", please acknowledge that it is a preferrence scale, based on subjective yes/no judgements, and then averaged, hence not fitting anybody in particular. More so it is an ordinal scale (wiki), no distances between contenders defined.

And so forth, it's just a bit of science taken seriously.

Edit, judgement was on a scale of 0..10

 

[Blumlein 88]

Wait, preferrence denial? No, there is nothing better for me subjectively, and the rest follows logically.

If you refer to the Olive scale as a measure of "better", please acknowledge that it is a preferrence scale, based on subjective yes/no judgements, and then averaged, hence not fitting anybody in particular. More so it is an ordinal scale (wiki), no distances between contenders defined.

And so forth, it's just a bit of science taken seriously.

It is not a yes/no scale. Maybe read some of Olive's blog or Toole's book.

 

[a4eaudio]

View attachment 437878

The labels are wrong. In this figure, there are increasing returns from the origin to the inflection point. After the inflection point there are diminishing marginal returns.

 

[Heinrich]

It is not a yes/no scale. Maybe read some of Olive's blog or Toole's book.

As far as I remember it asks A is better than B? Is it me to take the read?

Thanks!

"Differences in Performance and Preference of Trained Versus Untrained Listeners", Olive 2003, Appendix 2

True, a preference scale 0..10, and to my surprise people were asked to qualify their judgement.

Regarding my argument it doesn't make any difference.

 

[Blumlein 88]

As far as I remember it asks A is better than B? Is it me to take the read?

Not the way it is done.

 

[DanielT]

Preferrence as defined by Dr. Olive lives on an "ordinal scale", it can't be mapped to money, which lives on a rational scale (wiki).

Regarding the 305, yes it is in order, and it has its amp built in. The step, though, from that up to my 1k (2k regularly) pair plus a 150 $ Fosi etc amp is pretty steep in all categories, except for stereo imaging. Even the industrial design is flawless, for me: neutral, no excesses. The more expensive speaker in my example is way more versatile. But of course to say it is 2,749 times as "good" doesn't make sense.

I'm finally satisfied, and as said, don't long for more ever. That logically also says, I personally would not get "more" of something if I would spend extra. Not 'diminishing returns', but 'no returns'. I love to approve my decision to buy them

You said: 1k (2k regularly). That made me investigate.

Used for the 1k pair. Then you can get a lot of speakers for the money. It seems that in this price range I don't find many, relatively speaking, when I look at Sweden's largest used hifi site. There are many more around $300 but ALSO more around +4k. Maybe people are happy with their 1k speakers and don't want to sell them? Those who sell +4k speakers maybe belong to the swap and test often category of Hifi people?

Anyway (as Tony from LC Signs says). I checked through a few pages and I found this for sale for around 1k:

Cabasse Galion VII:


Elac FS 267:

Martin Logan Aerius:

(the electrostatics, that is, the white speaker in the picture on the right is a Carlsson OA51 speaker)

Martin Logan Aerius

Elektrostater enligt rubrik i mycket fint skick. Hämtpris i Falun P.o.K

hifitorget.se

Do diminishing returns kick in with with those speakers? There are probably those who think so. It may even be end game speakers for some. For others maybe only the entry-level model of tower speakers.

 

[DanielT]

I'd say that the diminishing returns start as low as ~$800.

Take a good $800 pair of towers, compare them to $1600 towers. Are the latter 2x better? Certainly not. They may be considerably better, but not twice as much better. (Even though it's obviously difficult to quantize quality).

Now the "sweet spot" where you get both excellent sound quality and a not-too-high price would be around the $2000~$3000 mark for me. This is where you start getting some seriously impressive stuff.

I missed your post. See my post above where I also mix used ones into the game.

 

[Heinrich]

Not the way it is done.

I find that methodology a bit problematic, but see my corrections. Anyway, my argument is valid still. My personal preference is what counts, not an averaged scale. Rest assured, the pair I have bought for cheap ranks very high, espacially when equalized: to taste ...

 

[Old_School_Brad]

An impossible vote and subsequent discussion, as it's entirely subjective.

 

[boxerfan88]

I realize this is an oft discussed topic, but I've never seen a poll so I'm curious. If you vote I'd love to hear what speaker you're thinking of.

Voted >$5k.

Magico.

.