What's the point of floorstanding when we have subwoofers?

[audiofooled]

High crossovers in the 150-200hz range certainly isn't the norm, and not something I use myself - but not that uncommon for instance when pairing subwoofers with line sources (that often have small drivers and very limited bass capacity).

Yes, let's agree to disagree.

Problem here is that not every sub can do a very clean mid-bass. The ones that can really make a difference in utilizing high crossover point.

 

[Sokel]

Problem here is that not every sub can do a very clean mid-bass. The ones that can really make a difference in utilizing high crossover point.

Probably that's the reason Genelec for example differentiates subs from bass modules like the W371A.
Different tools for different tasks.

 

[SamIAmSam]

I run dual 12" subs, but I also run them super-low, in cutoff frequency as well as volume; just enough so that they subtly augment the main speakers at the lowest register. The KEF 104/2's that currently run as the front speakers can dig fairly low (mfg. spec'd as 55Hz - 20KHz +/- 2DB at 2m) and I run the cut off (slope unknown at the moment) on the sub' so that it operates only at 60Hz. I've done this kind of thing with a great many front speakers over the years. It always works well. This, and large floor-standing speakers make for a handsome piece of man-furniture.

 

[audiofooled]

Probably that's the reason Genelec for example differentiates subs from bass modules like the W371A.
Different tools for different tasks.

Yeah, I'm sure they have a reason for that.

 

[theREALdotnet]

Localization is established at 80Hz with sines, lower with click tones, etc.

Tones at 80Hz or lower do not click. The "click" comes from spectral components of much higher frequencies.

Localisation at 80Hz is extremely difficult for me. I have three subs controlled by Dirac, I cannot easily tell which one is playing when I mute/unmute them individually in RME TotalMix. That is true even for crossover frequencies as high as 125Hz.

 

[Sokel]

Tones at 80Hz or lower do not click. The "click" comes from spectral components of much higher frequencies.

Localisation at 80Hz is extremely difficult for me. I have three subs controlled by Dirac, I cannot easily tell which one is playing when I mute/unmute them individually in RME TotalMix. That is true even for crossover frequencies as high as 125Hz.

I describe click tones not by sound but duration, call them beeps if you like.
Sines which last long (over a second or so) built up in rooms at lows, so the "clicks" I describe help with that.

(I'll try find them and post them)

 

[ZolaIII]

They sum full under 60 Hz and you safely add transition area to used model and slope. At 120 they are but it's not very perceptive if single sub is in centre. Simply using 2.2. I don't have to think about it and I do it for a group of reasons that high (120 Hz) deliberately, even good small 5.5" woofer would pass on it's own that high and for everything bigger it's stres out therapy. Main reason is keeping equal loudness compensation (ISO 226 2003) on sub's only (regarding lower part of it). I don't understand people who put crossovers below 70 Hz.

 

[ZolaIII]

I have idea. Could we come to any comprehensive analysis where there is least fundamental and true peeks in the suitable range in recorded music materials? And as making crossovers really ain't for everyone recomand that (if speakers can provide sufficiently) as well spot when less then ideal one would be less pronounced. Maybe it's just stupid idea as range is narrow and I can think of a lot of things that will have energy there anyway.

 

[goat76]

Well integrated subwoofers can enhance an audio system and have advantages.

But one replied to your question is:

Because integrating subwoofers effectively asks the consumer to become an amateur speaker designer, and not everybody is interested in that or up to it.

Think about it: a well designed floorstanding speaker, the manufacturer typically has far more knowledge and experience in regards to designing speakers, and has very carefully designed the integration of all the drivers and frequency range in order to achieve a coherent sound - whether that is a neutral sound they might be going for or their own particular sound they are going for.

So then the question is “ if I bought the loudspeakers for how they sound , why would I want to possibly screw that up?”

It’s not easy to perfectly integrate subwoofers. And some people just may not be interested in all the hassle.

I’ve very rarely heard a system with subs that sounds fully coherent to me - rarely is coherent as the floor speakers I have used.

I also tried to integrate subwoofers with my floorstanding speakers - dual subwoofers, crossover, DSP… and I did not find the results satisfactory. I found it changed the overall sound enough in a way that I preferred how the speaker sounded originally without the subwoofers.

Other people have different experience, which is of course fine. But personally, I am super fussy about the character of the loudspeaker I purchase. It’s a character that has been carefully achieved by the loudspeaker designer, and I’m not really into playing amateur loudspeaker designer to try and better it.

(And of course there is the issue of trying to place the extra subs in your room in terms of both aesthetics and performance, adding extra cabling, AC cabling etc)

Maybe not a popular suggestion around here, but I think you should give REL subwoofers a chance in your system. With the high-level connection, you let the main speakers play as deep as they go and just let the subwoofers handle the remaining bass below that point. They works seamlessly with the main speakers when you have found the correct crossover point and volume level, and your main speakers will just act as if they reach lower in the bass. They are very easy to integrate just by following the setup process in the manual.

I almost guarantee you would change your mind about subwoofers.

 

[theREALdotnet]

I describe click tones not by sound but duration, call them beeps if you like.
Sines which last long (over a second or so) built up in rooms at lows, so the "clicks" I describe help with that.

Any sound that contains only 80Hz is a sine wave that goes on forever, without start or stop. Anything that suddenly starts or stops has spectral components much higher than 80Hz. It's those components that let you localise the source.

 

[Sokel]

Any sound that contains only 80Hz is a sine wave that goes on forever, without start or stop. Anything that suddenly starts or stops has spectral components much higher than 80Hz. It's those components that let you localise the source.

The chirp signals I describe are like this but aggressively filtered at the desired range (20-80Hz) and short in time (a few ms) .

On top of that they must be used only with the lows at play, satellites must be shut off so they don't give any remaining clue.
Can't find the exact ones in my library as I don't remember how I named them and I have probably a thousand test tones of all shorts

 

[Sokel]

Any sound that contains only 80Hz is a sine wave that goes on forever, without start or stop. Anything that suddenly starts or stops has spectral components much higher than 80Hz. It's those components that let you localise the source.

Found them, it's called L-Chirp if I have written it right:

Brickwall filter at 20Hz and at 80Hz probably.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Problem here is that not every sub can do a very clean mid-bass. The ones that can really make a difference in utilizing high crossover point.

Agreed. Subwoofers that aren't built to play much higher than 100hz cleanly should of course not be asked to do so.

 

[terryforsythe]

View attachment 437083

Definitely. Even adding a small 8” subwoofer extends the response from the blue speaker, which is quite satisfying as is, to the last bit of kick from drums, synth, and LFE for movies.

Fair point, but I would not call that a smooth transition. The 135+ dB scale is deceiving at first glance. There is more than a 30dB difference between around 68Hz and 43Hz. And, what does the harmonic distortion look like?

Is it better than nothing? Yes, but certainly not worth the tradeoff of properly crossing it over. With my subwoofer, with room correction applied for my listening position, I am +/- 2dB from 20Hz - 100Hz (1/12 smoothing) with low THD.

 

[terryforsythe]

On top of that they must be used only with the lows at play, satellites must be shut off so they don't give any remaining clue.

I think that is where lies the difference between your perspective and my perspective. I don't listen to music with the satellites shut off.

If I turn off my speakers and only have the subwoofer playing, would I be able to localize it? Perhaps, but I certainly don't localize it with music playing through the speakers and subwoofer. That is, by far, the most important test.

This reminds me of the joke pertaining to the difference between a physicist and an engineer. Put them in a room with a beautiful woman, and tell them that they only can approach her at steps equal to 1/2 of the remaining distance. The physicist says "I'm out, I'll never get to her". The engineer says "I'm in, I'll get close enough for practical purposes".

 

[terryforsythe]

Here is another point worth repeating:

Not all people have floorstanding speakers for one reason or another, beit aesthetics, budget, etc. Moreover, many bookshelf speakers have high distortion and compression below 100Hz.

1. Is it better to let the bookshelf speakers play down to 40Hz or 60Hz, accepting the high distortion and compression, as well as a rough transition to the subwoofer, for the sake of not being able to audibly localize the subwoofer when the speakers are not playing?

2. Or, is it better to cross the bookshelf speakers over to the subwoofer at a frequency where distortion and compression are low and a smooth transition to the subwoofer can be made, and the subwoofer is not audibly localized when music is playing, even though the subwoofer may be able to be localized when the speakers are off?

My perspective is that option 2 is the better choice.

If someone's budget and room aesthetics allow for floorstanding speakers and multiple subwoofers, sure, there will be additional benefit. But this is not a practical solution for all people.

 

[Sokel]

Here is another point worth repeating:

Not all people have floorstanding speakers for one reason or another, beit aesthetics, budget, etc. Moreover, many bookshelf speakers have high distortion and compression below 100Hz.

1. Is it better to let the bookshelf speakers play down to 40Hz or 60Hz, accepting the high distortion and compression, as well as a rough transition to the subwoofer, for the sake of not being able to audibly localize the subwoofer when the speakers are not playing?

2. Or, is it better to cross the bookshelf speakers over to the subwoofer at a frequency where distortion and compression are low and a smooth transition to the subwoofer can be made, and the subwoofer is not audibly localized when music is playing, even though the subwoofer may be able to be localized when the speakers are off?

My perspective is that option 2 is the better choice.

If someone's budget and room aesthetics allow for floorstanding speakers and multiple subwoofers, sure, there will be additional benefit. But this is not a practical solution for all people.

Whatever suits one's needs is always better, that's for sure.
At your above examples though, first case will (maybe) maintain AE as described at the post I posted a few posts back if x-over is low enough as advised.

We all know that audio is a mix of compromises, one can choose its own if the set-up is in a shared room, or ,or, or...
Totally ok in my book.

 

[terryforsythe]

At your above examples though, first case will (maybe) maintain AE as described at the post I posted a few posts back if x-over is low enough as advised.

In my family room I have bookshelf speakers (heavily modified Elac UBR62) and a subwoofer (Velodyne HGS-18). In my office I have floorstanders (KEF LS60). Clearly, the rooms are different, so don't consider this conclusive, but I don't hear better AE with my office setup over my family room. Indeed, I prefer the acoustics of my family room, which is a much larger room. And, that gets to the final point, which is that the room in which the speakers are placed has a greater impact on music enjoyment than subtleties such as subwoofer crossover frequency.

 

[highender]

I love the disappearing act illusion and I find that more easy to get from a pair of standmounts with subs then with large floorstanders.

 

[DonH56]

So, there is the common idea even on ASR that "music doesn't contain frequencies below 30/40hz" because "the lowest fundamental of XYZ is ABC" - but as we know from Fourier, any sharp transient includes all frequencies at some amplitude, even cymbal strikes have a little energy down at 20hz. So most music can benefit at least tangentially from a subwoofer.

I do not recall that being a theme at ASR, or anywhere, really. I suppose you can debate the meaning of "music" but you do not need "sharp" (what does that mean?) transients to produce very low frequencies. How old is the 1812 Overture and it's cannon blasts (6 Hz "fundamental" on the old Telarc cartridge-buster record)? Piano hammer strikes produce VLF content, though the lowest key on a standard piano is 27 Hz (the 96-key 16' Bösendorfer goes lower). Organ pedals can go deeper, and everyone brings up drums (kick, kettle, whatever) and percussion (cymbals, mallets, etc.), but just normal music contains a lot of deep bass. Massed voices and multiple instruments create "beat" patterns that are at very low frequencies; musicians use them to stay in tune, among other things, but those patterns add to the "big" sound of many ensembles. Percussives from playing instruments or singing produces low-frequency pulses we can hear and miss without a system that can play deep bass. Etc.

FWIWFM - Don