What's the point of floorstanding when we have subwoofers?

[kemmler3D]

It’s not easy to perfectly integrate subwoofers. And some people just may not be interested in all the hassle.

What do you mean, you just have to buy a USB microphone and mic stand, connect it to your PC, load up REW, figure out how to use REW, position the speakers, take a measurement, repeat the measurements until you think they are right, then create a set of filters using REW, repeat the process of creating filters until they are right, load those into a DSP application or hardware, then take another measurement to see if they worked, mess with the position and settings on the subwoofer because it didn't work, then repeat the whole process a few times.

What's not to be interested in?

PS, I do all of this and find it "fun" in a way, but I can totally understand that even this "easy" version of integrating subwoofers is not super user friendly. I am aware that even more complex methods exist and I don't even bother with those myself.

I think WiiM's version is much more reasonable for the average punter, if not quite as good.

 

[terryforsythe]

He's talking about ONE sub here.

Yes. I understand that.

If two are involved, tightly close to mains one can cross them even at the 80's (no more though, subs are not great at distortion and it's good to hear the voices come from one place so the mouths are humane, not caves)

It depends. Some subwoofers have very low distortion. I have my servo controlled subwoofer crossed over at 100Hz with an 8th order crossover and everything sounds like it is in the soundstage; I don't detect localization of the subwoofer and I do not detect any problem with voices whatsoever. Voices sound fantastic.

The issue with a single subwoofer is with regard to room correction. Three or more subwoofers is best to correct over a large area. For proper correction of room modes, though, all of the subwoofers may not necessarily be close to the mains.

I room correct for my listening chair, and for that a single subwoofer works for me. When I am not in my listening chair, I am just listening to background music and I am not too concerned about the bass deviations that will be present elsewhere in the room. Nonethless, if room aesthetics were not an issue, I would add at least two more subwoofers at strategic locations around the room. EDIT: Actually, if room aesthetics were not an issue, I would be using tower speakers and three or more subwoofers for room correction.

 

[Chrispy]

If you build towers they can't use more space than already built towers and when you add sub's to towers guess what.

You raise tweeters in the tower too high?

 

[ZolaIII]

You raise tweeters in the tower too high?

Nope, why? I use stands for sub's.

 

[Chrispy]

Nope, why? I use stands for sub's.

Thought you were referring to similar footprint for a speaker on top of sub instead of just speaker.....

 

[MattHooper]

What do you mean, you just have to buy a USB microphone and mic stand, connect it to your PC, load up REW, figure out how to use REW, position the speakers, take a measurement, repeat the measurements until you think they are right, then create a set of filters using REW, repeat the process of creating filters until they are right, load those into a DSP application or hardware, then take another measurement to see if they worked, mess with the position and settings on the subwoofer because it didn't work, then repeat the whole process a few times.

What's not to be interested in?

PS, I do all of this and find it "fun" in a way, but I can totally understand that even this "easy" version of integrating subwoofers is not super user friendly. I am aware that even more complex methods exist and I don't even bother with those myself.

I think WiiM's version is much more reasonable for the average punter, if not quite as good.

This is why I have such a microphone gathering dust somewhere in my basement

 

[ZolaIII]

Thought you were referring to similar footprint for a speaker on top of sub instead of just speaker.....

I do it's packs, stand, sub, silicon and bookshelf's on top. I use laser pointer and angle tool. Put a pillow instead my head and aim. I horizontally spread them a little and it's more half lying position on sofa than siting so relatively low. Again why do you ask about tweaters?

 

[Chrispy]

I do it's packs, stand, sub, silicon and bookshelf's on top. I use laser pointer and angle tool. Put a pillow instead my head and aim. I horizontally spread them a little and it's more half lying position on sofa than siting so relatively low. Again why do you ask about tweaters?

Was referring to towers on top of subs particularly. With bookshelf/standmount you get some more options in that regard.

 

[GXAlan]

From that post:

"If two subs are not possible, I would not cross-over higher than 40 Hz."

If a speaker has low enough group delay at 40Hz to allow for a smooth transition to the subwoofer, it likely extends low enough to negate the need for the subwoofer. But, maybe adding a subwoofer still would be useful to shake the room in a home theater.

Definitely. Even adding a small 8” subwoofer extends the response from the blue speaker, which is quite satisfying as is, to the last bit of kick from drums, synth, and LFE for movies.

 

[JiiPee]

To answer the original question from my own part:
1. I use my audio gear to listen music. I have no interest in getting a gear to listen movie explosions etc... at 100+ dB, and my neighbors in the apartment building I live thank me for that.
2. I can enjoy my music even if my speakers do not reproduce frequencies below 30 Hz.
3. With some experimentation, I could find a speaker placement for my two speakers that works reasonably well in my living room. In my experience, doing the same with subwoofer usually requires DSP
4. With two slim floor standing speakers, I could present a visual package that the "interior decorating officer" found acceptable. Subwoofer would have presented a problem in this regard.

 

[Rosenbloom]

I always think using subwoofer is a compromise of not being able to accommodate floor standing speakers.

 

[Chrispy]

Some use their systems more than for just 2ch audio. Most floorstanders and more importantly the rooms, can usually use help in the very low bass area. Can even help speakers do better at what they do if supplemented down low. Then there are preferences and assumptions....

 

[kemmler3D]

I use my audio gear to listen music. I have no interest in getting a gear to listen movie explosions etc...

So, there is the common idea even on ASR that "music doesn't contain frequencies below 30/40hz" because "the lowest fundamental of XYZ is ABC" - but as we know from Fourier, any sharp transient includes all frequencies at some amplitude, even cymbal strikes have a little energy down at 20hz. So most music can benefit at least tangentially from a subwoofer.

2. I can enjoy my music even if my speakers do not reproduce frequencies below 30 Hz.

Despite the above, that's totally valid.

 

[Bjorn]

There's a big difference between a 6.5" or 8" woofer vs a 12" or 15" even as high as 300-350 Hz area. There's an effortless sound with bigger drivers in mid/upper bass and lower midrange where the subwoofer isn't used.

Plus directivity and baffle step are important. A short speaker looses the vertical directivity high in frequency and same with a narrow baffle horizontally.

 

[sigbergaudio]

He's talking about ONE sub here.
If two are involved, tightly close to mains one can cross them even at the 80's (no more though, subs are not great at distortion and it's good to hear the voices come from one place so the mouths are humane, not caves)

This has been discussed many times and these myths will never die, but it's perfectly viable to have dual subwoofers cross way higher than 80hz and get a coherent sound.

 

[JiiPee]

So, there is the common idea even on ASR that "music doesn't contain frequencies below 30/40hz" because "the lowest fundamental of XYZ is ABC" - but as we know from Fourier, any sharp transient includes all frequencies at some amplitude, even cymbal strikes have a little energy down at 20hz. So most music can benefit at least tangentially from a subwoofer.

I'm not saying that no music contains frequencies below 30 Hz, but You know this is ASR, so can You provide some objective proof regarding "most music can benefit from a speaker capable to go down to 20 Hz". I mean like a blind test where people can reliably hear the difference, and state their preference.

 

[Sokel]

but it's perfectly viable to have dual subwoofers cross way higher than 80hz and get a coherent sound.

Far (over 1 meter or so) away from satellites?
And how would you do that without been localizable while keeping the voice's and instrument's proportions right?

And since when this is a myth? Localization is established at 80Hz with sines, lower with click tones, etc.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Far (over 1 meter or so) away from satellites?

With a symmetrical placement of two subs, yes even further away than 1 meter could work well at least up to 100-120hz. With a closer position, even higher, 150-200hz. Wavelength at 200hz is still 1.7m.

And how would you do that without been localizable while keeping the voice's and instrument's proportions right?

And since when this is a myth? Localization is established at 80Hz with sines, lower with click tones, etc.

I think the real life implications of most studies are misunderstood / exaggerated. There is a large difference between individual signals like sinewaves in a controlled test specifically set up to test localization capabilities of humans in ideal conditions, and actual music content where 99% of the sounds / instruments / vocals are either mono or consists of broadband spectrum content that hits both the subwoofers and speakers in a real room full of reflections.

I would suggest that those who claim to be able to localize symmetrically placed subwoofers with music content and a 80-100hz crossover (24dB/octave or higher) are either A) fooling themselves or B) have subwoofers with higher spectrum distortion due to either the driver or the cabinet.

I understand that many will disagree, and I am happy to agree to disagree.

 

[Sokel]

Wavelength at 200hz is still 1.7m.

Since you went up to a whooping 200Hz (!) I'll go with (your own?) Vance Dickason about wavelengths.
So the ideal is close to 0.4 meters (center to center) ?
Or, with real world compromises near 0.8 meters?

Yes, we surely disagree. Symmetrical positioning can sure help, can even be intriguing with some music, but go far and the holes are evident, along with the proportions.
Treated rooms reveal things like this easily.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Since you went up to a whooping 200Hz (!) I'll go with (your own?) Vance Dickason about wavelengths.
So the ideal is close to 0.4 meters (center to center) ?
Or, with real world compromises near 0.8 meters?

Yes, we surely disagree. Symmetrical positioning can sure help, can even be intriguing with some music, but go far and the holes are evident, along with the proportions.
Treated rooms reveal things like this easily.

High crossovers in the 150-200hz range certainly isn't the norm, and not something I use myself - but not that uncommon for instance when pairing subwoofers with line sources (that often have small drivers and very limited bass capacity).

Yes, let's agree to disagree.