What's the point of floorstanding when we have subwoofers?

[kawauso]

Perhaps 4 of these will help "scratch the itch"?

View attachment 491130

Ascendo 80 - 80" subwoofer....

This picture of the giant subwoofer — I’ve seen it on the forum so many times.
And man, the guy in the photo… he’s insanely happy, isn’t he

 

[EJ3]

A subwoofer’s distortion doesn’t affect the entire bandwidth the way a full-range driver does, so it won’t create the same extreme results you see in Purifi’s demo.
That said, subwoofers actually reproduce higher frequencies than people expect, so I don’t think IMD can be dismissed entirely.
Personally, I’m in the camp that likes to use masking when it’s available. If you happen to know of any experimental results specifically about IMD in subwoofers, I’d love to see them.

Since the raw speaker in my sub is rated 20 Hz-80 HZ and I hi pass it at 50 Hz,, low pass at 65 Hz I'm guessing that it does it does not go much higher than I expect.

 

[Digital_Thor]

I once thought that I could hear distortion in subwoofers, but it later showed - by experimenting - that it actually was the driver that exhibited some resonance at around 150Hz in my specific DIY cabinet, so EQ could quite easily fix it.
So not sub-domain per say, rather woofer-domain.
Two reasons I excited that resonance. Firstly, I wanted to cross higher to compensate for my main woofers lack of displacement. Secondly, I want to overlap to smooth out the transition between subwoofer and mains, to get a more coherent sound overall.
So my 2 cents, would be to look at your specific setup and chose how much complexity you can fathom, budget, space restrains, area of listening and overall usage.
1. I chose to have 4 subwoofers, that can go pretty cleanly to around 150Hz.
2. I place the subwoofers pretty roughly around the room, one in a deep corner, one in the open, one in the middle and the last one kinda around a doorway. Though, they are roughly placed 2 on the right side and 2 on the left - in relation to my listening position - in pairs linked via DSP to either left or right channel, respectively(in rare cases you can hear "stereo" in the sub-domain).
3. Neither subwoofer is within 2 meters of my mains.
4. My mains are closed and has a F3@60Hz.
5. I overlap roughly between 60 and 110Hz - Mains roll of with no filter(6dB) and subwoofers only have a low-pass, which I experiment with to be 24dB at the moment.

To me, this works very smoothly in my entire room. Bass is deep, even and changes surprisingly little as you move around.
I took around 80-90% of the "Geddes" approach, and focused on getting a smooth response with 6 bass sources, focusing mostly on simple PEQ and gain - and definitely never thought of looking into distortion again - unless something huffed or rattled.

One thing that I particularly noted from Geddes, was to have plenty of headroom all over. It makes EQ a lot easier with lots of "freedom".
2 subwoofers are 12" in 90 liters, 2 other subwoofers are 15" in 110 liters, and mains are 2x9,5" in 75 liters. All closed and with between 450 and 1400W for each section.
Dips in the response could both be because of placement in the room, or because subwoofers "stole" from each other. So when you measure each bass.- source individually in the listening position, you quickly find which source you need to EQ to have a smoother bass, and which one that adds bass.
Lastly, I EQ globally with all 6 sources "on".

So my takeaway... Below around 150Hz, focus on smoothness/evenness of the total response. If you want to talk distortion, then focus higher in frequency.

 

[EJ3]

I once thought that I could hear distortion in subwoofers, but it later showed - by experimenting - that it actually was the driver that exhibited some resonance at around 150Hz in my specific DIY cabinet, so EQ could quite easily fix it.
So not sub-domain per say, rather woofer-domain.
Two reasons I excited that resonance. Firstly, I wanted to cross higher to compensate for my main woofers lack of displacement. Secondly, I want to overlap to smooth out the transition between subwoofer and mains, to get a more coherent sound overall.
So my 2 cents, would be to look at your specific setup and chose how much complexity you can fathom, budget, space restrains, area of listening and overall usage.
1. I chose to have 4 subwoofers, that can go pretty cleanly to around 150Hz.
2. I place the subwoofers pretty roughly around the room, one in a deep corner, one in the open, one in the middle and the last one kinda around a doorway. Though, they are roughly placed 2 on the right side and 2 on the left - in relation to my listening position - in pairs linked via DSP to either left or right channel, respectively(in rare cases you can hear "stereo" in the sub-domain).
3. Neither subwoofer is within 2 meters of my mains.
4. My mains are closed and has a F3@60Hz.
5. I overlap roughly between 60 and 110Hz - Mains roll of with no filter(6dB) and subwoofers only have a low-pass, which I experiment with to be 24dB at the moment.

To me, this works very smoothly in my entire room. Bass is deep, even and changes surprisingly little as you move around.
I took around 80-90% of the "Geddes" approach, and focused on getting a smooth response with 6 bass sources, focusing mostly on simple PEQ and gain - and definitely never thought of looking into distortion again - unless something huffed or rattled.

One thing that I particularly noted from Geddes, was to have plenty of headroom all over. It makes EQ a lot easier with lots of "freedom".
2 subwoofers are 12" in 90 liters, 2 other subwoofers are 15" in 110 liters, and mains are 2x9,5" in 75 liters. All closed and with between 450 and 1400W for each section.
Dips in the response could both be because of placement in the room, or because subwoofers "stole" from each other. So when you measure each bass.- source individually in the listening position, you quickly find which source you need to EQ to have a smoother bass, and which one that adds bass.
Lastly, I EQ globally with all 6 sources "on".

So my takeaway... Below around 150Hz, focus on smoothness/evenness of the total response. If you want to talk distortion, then focus higher in frequency.

My mains are +-2 DB 26 Hz-20 KHz, the F2 is 26 Hz (which is why my crossover is so low). The +2 DB is at 60 Hz. The pair of subs are floor firing, 12" DYI port tuned to 29 Hz.
I did them many years ago & do not remember the box litres.

My mains sit on top of the Floor firing subs, thus minimising the group delay (which, for the mains is: a group-delay variation of about 0.1 millisecond between 4,000 and 20,000 Hz and 0.5 ms between 1,000 and 20.000 Hz).
And I, like you, also do not believe in underpowering anything, so the mains have 500 watts each (@ 4 Ohms) and the 2 subs have 1400 watts each (@ 4 Ohms).
SMOOTH, yes, that is the word of the day for great audio, in my opinion. Nothing glaringly standing out!

 

[Vovgan]

Did you check how that looks in REW? Phase shift might work better as you can control it more granularly to achieve the right balance. Also, if you have 2 subs, you might want to have one in phase and the other one out of phase. But also you might have just gone lucky and stroke the gold with the first tweak.

I would not ask AI anything complicated though. If feeds from forums mostly where people post all kinds of stuff and then you have AI hallucinating on top of that. Example would be that losing bass between 50 and 140hz should have nothing to do with the port on your Revels. They are also not so big to be crossed at 60hz - unless you have some humongous room gain. My 2c...

You are right: the amount of rubbish that AI pedals about home audio is maybe 2 orders of magnitude more than on any other topic of my interest.

But the reason I mentioned those two tweaks were not because AI recommended them as such, but:

1) They did wonders for my system
2) Audyssey (the most popular calibration tool maybe?) cannot fix them for the life of it, and you cannot tweak anything manually in Audyssey or in Denon AVR to do it either.

Of course they will not work for everyone, but I would have given a lot to had learned and tried them several years ago.

And yes: both my front speakers and two subs are equidistant from the main listening position so that simplified my choices.

And as for the diminished bass in the 50Hz to 140Hz region - yes, intuitively this is not what I expected after plugging the ports of the main speakers but this was the only change that I did and the clarity and punchiness of sound have improved greatly without any perceptible deficiency in bass, so whether these were delayed port reverberations or not I don't know, but this has done wonders for at least one audiophile's system ;-)

 

[Digital_Thor]

And as for the diminished bass in the 50Hz to 140Hz region - yes, intuitively this is not what I expected after plugging the ports of the main speakers but this was the only change that I did and the clarity and punchiness of sound have improved greatly without any perceptible deficiency in bass, so whether these were delayed port reverberations or not I don't know, but this has done wonders for at least one audiophile's system ;-)

This is why I always preferred closed designs.
Closed boxes do have a lot less efficiency, but the overall better phase, is IMO worth it, especially when integrating subwoofers.
I stopped speculating long time ago why I prefer closed speakers, and simply enjoy them. But if I had to, then I believe that some people are less forgiving, when listening to speakers with this - IMO - slight overhang from ported designs.
Cardioid designs like D&D, get away with increased distortion in the bass, because it greatly helps with controlled dispertion, minimizing impact from the room, and because we simply 'listen through' distortion at lower frequencies.
Further, I believe we should distinguish between distortion coming directly from the driver, and the distortion that is added by acoustics.

 

[Sokel]

This is why I always preferred closed designs.
Closed boxes do have a lot less efficiency, but the overall better phase, is IMO worth it, especially when integrating subwoofers.
I stopped speculating long time ago why I prefer closed speakers, and simply enjoy them. But if I had to, then I believe that some people are less forgiving, when listening to speakers with this - IMO - slight overhang from ported designs.
Cardioid designs like D&D, get away with increased distortion in the bass, because it greatly helps with controlled dispertion, minimizing impact from the room, and because we simply 'listen through' distortion at lower frequencies.
Further, I believe we should distinguish between distortion coming directly from the driver, and the distortion that is added by acoustics.

Distinction between closed or ported (PR or sheer ports) must always be into context.
I mean, the best, biggest mains monitors (and the smaller new ones) are all ported.

One must choose the set of compromises that suit the use.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Since the raw speaker in my sub is rated 20 Hz-80 HZ and I hi pass it at 50 Hz,, low pass at 65 Hz I'm guessing that it does it does not go much higher than I expect.

If you know if it's a 12dB or 24dB filter, you know how high it goes. Typically higher than you'd intuitively expect.

 

[audiofooled]

About recent discussion on distortion, perhaps this might be of interest:

A Broad Discussion of Speakers with Major Audio Luminaries

Just curious. I attach my version, Good evening Dr. Floyd. Alton Everest acoustics manual. and you will see that even the first room reflections are around the threshold of detection for image shift. So, don't get concerned about "image shift and focus" caused by even later room Crosstalk is...

www.audiosciencereview.com

"Most subwoofers also create audible harmonics, you really can't do much with a smaller enclosure, even with positional feedback, as far as I've seen, to prevent that. Consider, for instance, a run of the mill 15" dayton "max" sub. Put it in a 15x15x15 enclosure, and you find that the interior volume changes enough during extension and compression (way over the 120 to 140dB SPL limit for linearity in air) to make an even order distortion system. This is why a lot of the "small, powerful" subwoofers can be quickly located, which should not be the case, because of audible harmonics above 90 hz or so. Even if most of the distortion is below 90 Hz, if the phase of the harmonics lines up on the cochlea, the CNS manages to help you locate this. (note, this is not like a 'steady tone' at one frequency, which isn't going to 'locate' anything, nor is it a variation in phase across the two ears, which again is audible, but which does not appear to provide directional sensation, only spatial sensation)."

 

[Oddball]

You are right: the amount of rubbish that AI pedals about home audio is maybe 2 orders of magnitude more than on any other topic of my interest.

But the reason I mentioned those two tweaks were not because AI recommended them as such, but:

1) They did wonders for my system
2) Audyssey (the most popular calibration tool maybe?) cannot fix them for the life of it, and you cannot tweak anything manually in Audyssey or in Denon AVR to do it either.

Of course they will not work for everyone, but I would have given a lot to had learned and tried them several years ago.

And yes: both my front speakers and two subs are equidistant from the main listening position so that simplified my choices.

And as for the diminished bass in the 50Hz to 140Hz region - yes, intuitively this is not what I expected after plugging the ports of the main speakers but this was the only change that I did and the clarity and punchiness of sound have improved greatly without any perceptible deficiency in bass, so whether these were delayed port reverberations or not I don't know, but this has done wonders for at least one audiophile's system ;-)

Sure - I am just raising the points to consider. Been there, done that in a 9.4.4 system. For me turned out that front subs are best in phase with the system and back out of phase, but not totally inverted. Nothing wrong with preference for sealed towers, just that 60hz crossover seems a bit low, but could still work in your room and system.

EDIT: Just to clarify that was my previous Audy setup. I am now running ART and not really doing anything else but just set it up.

 

[Oddball]

This picture of the giant subwoofer — I’ve seen it on the forum so many times.
And man, the guy in the photo… he’s insanely happy, isn’t he

You can always upsize from your monster subs to the true to scale Godzilla level subs...

 

[EJ3]

If you know if it's a 12dB or 24dB filter, you know how high it goes. Typically higher than you'd intuitively expect.

Of course the simple thing to do (done 25+ years ago) was operate the subs by themselves. They are 18 DB Low Pass, 12 DB High Pass and can be added to in 6 DB increments (they are analog, in between the pre-amp & the amp). I have no reason to go though ancient paperwork or waste my time calculating and or remeasuring something that I am happy with.
On the other hand, IF & WHEN I change the speakers (as you know, I have been looking), it will need to be done again. And will likely then be done with a piece of digital gear added to my processor loop.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Of course the simple thing to do (done 25+ years ago) was operate the subs by themselves. They are 18 DB Low Pass, 12 DB High Pass and can be added to in 6 DB increments (they are analog, in between the pre-amp & the amp). I have no reason to go though ancient paperwork or waste my time calculating and or remeasuring something that I am happy with.
On the other hand, IF & WHEN I change the speakers (as you know, I have been looking), it will need to be done again. And will likely then be done with a piece of digital gear added to my processor loop.

Yes, wasn't expecting you to start a research project. But my point was that if as you say you have 12dB/octave, it's only 12dB down at 100hz if you cross over at 50hz, and 24dB at 200hz. So quite a bit of output relatively high.

 

[EJ3]

Yes, wasn't expecting you to start a research project. But my point was that if as you say you have 12dB/octave, it's only 12dB down at 100hz if you cross over at 50hz, and 24dB at 200hz. So quite a bit of output relatively high.

There is also the fact that the speaker itself is not rated any higher than 80 Hz (yes, I know that it can go both lower than it's 20 Hz rating and higher than it's 80 Hz rating but not as readily as others with a more wide ranging FR, especially not as much on the higher end).

 

[siggen]

Hi Levi,
Thanks for sharing your experience! Like I said before, part of me really wants to experiment—make the most of my current setup, take measurements, fine-tune the sub integration, and hopefully get a great sound with deep, clean bass for both music and movies.


But, as I mentioned to someone else (and based on what you’re saying), I’m wondering if diving into this project will just mean going in circles, only to end up buying floorstanders that give a more integrated and coherent result from the start.


From your experience, even with a preamp like the WiiM that offers features like Auto Time Alignment, Crossover, Sub & Speaker Sync, phase adjustment—and using REW with a mic—is it still that hard to get a satisfying result?


Also, about what you said on mono: does adding a second sub fix that? Of course, if I have to add a second sub, things get more complicated since my listening room is my living room, and I’ve got everything set up to keep it practical for everyday life. More boxes and cables could be a pain.


For now, I need to think this through.

I just used the Wiim app to integrate a sub to my floor standers. Be sure to start in the sub menu, auto align delay, then use Room fit. Iterate by selecting different crossover freq depending on room response. Run roomfit again. In my case, I had to lift my sub, and run bass to both fronts and the sub, to counter horizontal and vertical room.modes. very happy now with the results.