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What's the point of floorstanding when we have subwoofers?

No negative side effect brings us posts up - so we are mad to buy good subs?
Do you have the ability to play REW's signal generator through your system? If you do you might want to try playing around with different frequency tones and adding different amounts of distortion and different orders (most speaker distortion is 2nd and 3rd order) so you can hear for yourself what harmonic distortion sounds like at different levels. The problem with this exercise is it is MUCH easier to hear harmonic distortion when playing tones than it is when music playing.

Regarding some of these music listening examples and LF distortion levels there is a problem which is that most music doesn't have much content below 40 Hz and below 30 Hz it is quite rare. In addition the threshold of hearing at 20 Hz is ~78 dB so even if there is content at 20 Hz unless you are listening quite loud you won't hear it. So listening tests at normal levels where people say they don't hear 50% distortion at 20 Hz doesn't mean anything because usually there is no 20 Hz content to distort and even if there were you would have to be listening very loud to hear it.

Regarding big high performance subs, they really don't make practical sense in most situations but in some situations i.e. high SPL where actual LF content exists they can make a big difference. My frustration is that less capable subs are marketed as "the same thing" as big high performance subs which further muddies the waters because for 90%+ of uses cases they really do sound the same because neither big high performance subs nor "posing less capable subs" are doing much of anything audible especially below 40 Hz.
 
... So listening tests at normal levels where people say they don't hear 50% distortion at 20 Hz doesn't mean anything because usually there is no 20 Hz content to distort and even if there were you would have to be listening very loud to hear it.
...

That wasn't the case at all with the presented example above. You can't test for the amount of distortion people are able hear at 20Hz without providing a 20Hz signal. The result stands.
 
Do you have the ability to play REW's signal generator through your system? If you do you might want to try playing around with different frequency tones and adding different amounts of distortion and different orders (most speaker distortion is 2nd and 3rd order) so you can hear for yourself what harmonic distortion sounds like at different levels. The problem with this exercise is it is MUCH easier to hear harmonic distortion when playing tones than it is when music playing.

Regarding some of these music listening examples and LF distortion levels there is a problem which is that most music doesn't have much content below 40 Hz and below 30 Hz it is quite rare. In addition the threshold of hearing at 20 Hz is ~78 dB so even if there is content at 20 Hz unless you are listening quite loud you won't hear it. So listening tests at normal levels where people say they don't hear 50% distortion at 20 Hz doesn't mean anything because usually there is no 20 Hz content to distort and even if there were you would have to be listening very loud to hear it.

Regarding big high performance subs, they really don't make practical sense in most situations but in some situations i.e. high SPL where actual LF content exists they can make a big difference. My frustration is that less capable subs are marketed as "the same thing" as big high performance subs which further muddies the waters because for 90%+ of uses cases they really do sound the same because neither big high performance subs nor "posing less capable subs" are doing much of anything audible especially below 40 Hz.
High performance subs are really good if you can afford them and expect 115dB performance from them. And obviously you don't have to speak of 100% distortion that remains a mystery to be potentially clarified by other interested parties that is not myself.

Just a short digression, this is my system and graphs. I wish I did not have to post it so ofter as seems a bit like a show off, but then again it seems to be an effective way to facilitate discussions.

 
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High performance subs are really good if you can afford them and expect 115dB performance from them. And obviously you don't have to speak of 100% distortion that remains a mystery to be potentially clarified by other interested parties that is not myself.

Just a short digression, this is my system and graphs. I wish I did not have to post it so ofter as seems a bit like a show off, but then again it seems to be an effective way to facilitate discussions.

Even though I have DIRAC DLBC and am not using it I am very interested to give ART a try. Do you have any idea when the PC version is going to be coming out?
 
That wasn't the case at all with the presented example above. You can't test for the amount of distortion people are able hear at 20Hz without providing a 20Hz signal. The result stands.
Sorry, which example, there have been a lot posted.
 
I have even wrote news :-D
“For a 20 Hz tone, listeners tolerated up to 100% distortion before they complained about the sound.”

That is a direct, literal quote from a respected published source:
I hope someone more qualified than me can comment but this paper seems to have the wrong title, rather than "How Much Distortion Can We Hear With Music?" it seems like it should be "How Much Noise Can We Hear With Music?" The study tests steady state noise hearing thresholds based on the frequency of the noise which concludes you need more dB's of lower frequency noise than higher frequency noise to be detectable which makes sense. But that has nothing at all to do with Harmonic Distortion unless I am missing something which is possible.
 
Even though I have DIRAC DLBC and am not using it I am very interested to give ART a try. Do you have any idea when the PC version is going to be coming out?
Not sure but was in beta for couple of years now, so hopefully soon. Perhaps one of beta testers @Kal Rubinson would know more?
 
Sorry, which example, there have been a lot posted.
Slow down a bit and read others' responses a bit more carefully, as we have the courtesy to do with yours?


A well designed and credible test. Doesn't teach us anything that wasn't known, but shows 20Hz is not an area you should have distortion concerns about.

And you yourself proceeded to state "My frustration is that less capable subs are marketed as "the same thing" as big high performance subs which further muddies the waters because for 90%+ of uses cases they really do sound the same because neither big high performance subs nor "posing less capable subs" are doing much of anything audible especially below 40 Hz... " which further seems to make the point.
 
Slow down a bit and read others' responses a bit more carefully, as we have the courtesy to do with yours?


A well designed and credible test. Doesn't teach us anything that wasn't known, but shows 20Hz is not an area you should have distortion concerns about.

And you yourself proceeded to state "My frustration is that less capable subs are marketed as "the same thing" as big high performance subs which further muddies the waters because for 90%+ of uses cases they really do sound the same because neither big high performance subs nor "posing less capable subs" are doing much of anything audible especially below 40 Hz... " which further seems to make the point.
There is no point. People listen to HT as well as stereo. 40hz is a very busy frequency for both. If you don't have such subs just be honest and come forth. Nothing wrong with that.
 
There is no point. People listen to HT as well as stereo. 40hz is a very busy frequency for both. If you don't have such subs just be honest and come forth. Nothing wrong with that.
Oh now you go for the fallacy of "your equipment isn't good enough". You're blocked, no point in sharing more info here.
I could easily counter that saying you clearly can't accept basic facts and hence I don't trust your ability to put a capable system together, but (a) no point in escalating (b) I don't get into idiotic fights here (c) at times you have shown you know better, so there's some hope.
 
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Oh now you go for the fallacy of "your equipment isn't good enough". You're blocked, no point in sharing more info here.
I could easily counter that saying you clearly can't accept basic facts and hence I don't trust your ability to put a capable system together, but (a) no point in escalating (b) I don't get into idiotic fights here (c) at times you have shown you know better, so there's some hope.
There is no point of getting angry. And probably more point to engage with the others. I posted by system so not sure what you have and there was no pun intended.
 
Slow down a bit and read others' responses a bit more carefully, as we have the courtesy to do with yours?


A well designed and credible test. Doesn't teach us anything that wasn't known, but shows 20Hz is not an area you should have distortion concerns about.

And you yourself proceeded to state "My frustration is that less capable subs are marketed as "the same thing" as big high performance subs which further muddies the waters because for 90%+ of uses cases they really do sound the same because neither big high performance subs nor "posing less capable subs" are doing much of anything audible especially below 40 Hz... " which further seems to make the point.
This experiment is basically just a noise-based test, right?
The author even mentions that it doesn’t evaluate IMD at all.

Purifi’s simulation clearly shows that BL nonlinearity is the real problem.
And honestly, that second audio sample (the BL one) sounds terrible.
 
This experiment is basically just a noise-based test, right?
The author even mentions that it doesn’t evaluate IMD at all.

Purifi’s simulation clearly shows that BL nonlinearity is the real problem.
And honestly, that second audio sample (the BL one) sounds terrible.

Not an experiment. Well conducted test with all parameters published. Proves something well known all around, for the umpteenth time. And the Putzey blog (never a study/test, just a bunch of claims, credible and plausible, but oddly never claiming to prove anything) headline and big takeaway entirely embrace that. But they may have an agenda to sell you something on top, which you are free to do, of course. And I don't dispute at all Purifi's stuff is amazing, measures amazingly, etc.

Notice their big takeaway: "The science was right: even gross bass distortion is remarkably difficult to hear. The fine print says yes, provided it stays in the bass."

Which basically means he admits the former, obfuscates the latter.
 
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Not an experiment. Well conducted test with all parameters published. Proves something well known all around, for the umpteenth time. And the Putzey blog (never a study/test, just a bunch of claims, credible and plausible, but oddly never claiming to prove anything) headline and big takeaway entirely embrace that. But they may have an agenda to sell you something on top, which you are free to do, of course. And I don't dispute at all Purifi's stuff is amazing, measures amazingly, etc.

Notice their big takeaway: "The science was right: even gross bass distortion is remarkably difficult to hear. The fine print says yes, provided it stays in the bass."

Which basically means he admits the former, obfuscates the latter.
It does look like a properly conducted test, yes.
But it is not an IMD test.
The author clearly states that “this experiment only examines noise-type distortion and that IMD is a different matter.”
So it cannot be used as evidence for IMD audibility.

And putting aside whatever commercial motives Purifi may or may not have... did you actually listen to their sample files?
 
Not an experiment. Well conducted test with all parameters published. Proves something well known all around, for the umpteenth time. And the Putzey blog (never a study/test, just a bunch of claims, credible and plausible, but oddly never claiming to prove anything) headline and big takeaway entirely embrace that. But they may have an agenda to sell you something on top, which you are free to do, of course. And I don't dispute at all Purifi's stuff is amazing, measures amazingly, etc.

Notice their big takeaway: "The science was right: even gross bass distortion is remarkably difficult to hear. The fine print says yes, provided it stays in the bass."

Which basically means he admits the former, obfuscates the latter.
A subwoofer’s distortion doesn’t affect the entire bandwidth the way a full-range driver does, so it won’t create the same extreme results you see in Purifi’s demo.
That said, subwoofers actually reproduce higher frequencies than people expect, so I don’t think IMD can be dismissed entirely.
Personally, I’m in the camp that likes to use masking when it’s available. If you happen to know of any experimental results specifically about IMD in subwoofers, I’d love to see them.
 
A subwoofer’s distortion doesn’t affect the entire bandwidth the way a full-range driver does, so it won’t create the same extreme results you see in Purifi’s demo.
That said, subwoofers actually reproduce higher frequencies than people expect, so I don’t think IMD can be dismissed entirely.
Personally, I’m in the camp that likes to use masking when it’s available. If you happen to know of any experimental results specifically about IMD in subwoofers, I’d love to see them.
It is worth keeping in mind that the subs frequency response is for the desired signal...

It's frequency response in terms of distortions, whether harmonic or IMD, or parasitic vibrations - could (potentially) extend well outside the signal F/R.

Non linear woofer cone motion (including breakup) can certainly generate distortion well above the fundamental frequency...
 
It is worth keeping in mind that the subs frequency response is for the desired signal...

It's frequency response in terms of distortions, whether harmonic or IMD, or parasitic vibrations - could (potentially) extend well outside the signal F/R.

Non linear woofer cone motion (including breakup) can certainly generate distortion well above the fundamental frequency...
Yeah, even if it's within the subwoofer range, I don’t think we can confidently call it completely “safe.”
There are still so many things in audio that aren’t fully understood yet, aren’t there?

I’m starting to think that, in the long run, my JBL system probably “needs” four JTR subs.
dlaloum, please stop me before I do something irreversible…
 
Not sure I or my neighbours would agree with 20hz point. But 40hz is one octave up?

EDIT: I don't really understand 100% distortion point. What that really means and what do you hear or not hear at that point? The way I would interpret it in layman's language that there is nothing you can hear from original signal so you hear - what?
It means the distortion products add up to the same voltage as the test signal.

Rick “at least that’s how test equipment measures it” Denney
 
Yeah, even if it's within the subwoofer range, I don’t think we can confidently call it completely “safe.”
There are still so many things in audio that aren’t fully understood yet, aren’t there?

I’m starting to think that, in the long run, my JBL system probably “needs” four JTR subs.
dlaloum, please stop me before I do something irreversible…
Perhaps 4 of these will help "scratch the itch"?

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Ascendo 80 - 80" subwoofer....
 
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