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What's the point of floorstanding when we have subwoofers?

Be my guest :)
100% of them are pretty impressed
I was, of course talking about people without subs.
Who, for some reason, want other's to acknowledge how great their stereo sounds.
& most times it does sound pretty good: in the range that it is capable of.
But is sadly lacking in the lower end of the music.
So, no, it does not sound "great". I can only give it "pretty good" as an accolade.
 
I have never seen anyone's home that had any main speakers that had less than 8" woofers (unless it was a Minimus 7 style speaker that was meant to [and being]) used with a sub or 2.
For other purposes (workshop, boat, car. yes I have) but for the main house system, even my 91 year old mother has 8" ported woofers in her "book-shelf" speakers. They are crossed over 60 Hz High Pass, 80 Hz low pass.
The Infinity Primus 250 speakers I'm now using have a pair of 5" woofers. The Infinity Primus 360s I used to own have a pair of 6 & 1/2" woofers. Both are floor-standing speakers, the 250s go down to about 60hz, the 360s go down to 40hz. Both sound better with subwoofers.
 
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The Infinity Primus 250 speakers I'm now using have a pair of 5" woofers. The Infinity Primus 360s I used to own have a pair of 6 & 1/2" woofers. Both are floor-standing speakers, the 250s go down to about 60hz, the 360s go down to 40hz. Both sound better with subwoofers.
My Dahlquist M-905's (The 8-inch woofer is a polyvinyl-acetate-laminated cone operating in a vented enclosure. The outlet of its tuned port is on the front panel of the speaker cabinet. At 2,500 Hz there is a crossover to a 1-inch soft-dome tweeter) still sound better with subs, in spite of their FR measurement:
At the system resonance of 60 Hz, the output was only about 2 dB above its average level in the upper part of the woofer’s range, and even that minor output variation was spread over almost two octaves. When the bass curve was spliced to the room-response measurement, the resulting composite frequency response was flat within about ±2 dB from 26 to 20,000 Hz. The horizontal directivity of the tweeter was only discernible in the room measurement above 10,000 Hz.
I use 60 Hz high pass & 80 Hz lowpass.
 
I was, of course talking about people without subs.
Who, for some reason, want other's to acknowledge how great their stereo sounds.
& most times it does sound pretty good: in the range that it is capable of.
But is sadly lacking in the lower end of the music.
So, no, it does not sound "great". I can only give it "pretty good" as an accolade.
Definitely depends on musical preferences. And I never argue with anyone that's happy with what they have.

I consider myself knowledgeable (but definitely not as much as several others here remotely), but total extension to 20Hz doesn't make a difference that impacts my musical enjoyment in any way. Accuracy and balance and presence (staging) do far more to me than being able to hear a Tyrannosaur hop around.
 
Definitely depends on musical preferences. And I never argue with anyone that's happy with what they have.

I consider myself knowledgeable (but definitely not as much as several others here remotely), but total extension to 20Hz doesn't make a difference that impacts my musical enjoyment in any way. Accuracy and balance and presence (staging) do far more to me than being able to hear a Tyrannosaur hop around.
I like to hear the lowest note on a bass guitar, a piano & an organ. With accuracy, balance, presence (Yes good if not great: staging).
Since I have not owned a TV since 2007 (it would strictly be for DVD, Blu Ray & 4K IF I did, anyway), I, too, am not interested in T-Rex hopping around.
I'd rather play with boxer engines, anyway.
 
I like to hear the lowest note on a bass guitar, a piano & an organ. With accuracy, balance, presence (Yes good if not great: staging).
Since I have not owned a TV since 2007 (it would strictly be for DVD, Blu Ray & 4K IF I did, anyway), I, too, am not interested in T-Rex hopping around.
I'd rather play with boxer engines, anyway.
The lowest note on a bass guitar is waaaay above subbass, but of course we'll have people coming in about the harmonics and what not. I just know that extension does zero for me. over.

As to boxer engines, I keep a 2000 BMW R1100S around.
 
The lowest note on a bass guitar is waaaay above subbass, but of course we'll have people coming in about the harmonics and what not. I just know that extension does zero for me. over.

As to boxer engines, I keep a 2000 BMW R1100S around.
Since when is 41Hz (E1) not firmly in subbass land?
 
Somehow Im thinking about organs.... big ones do 16hz, or even 8hz.
Deepest bass... Doesnt even require electricity.
No electricity? Show me a pipe organ with 64-foot pipes that uses manual blowers.

Rick "oh, you mean amplification" Denney
 
I'm a tuba player, and regularly play notes down into the 30's and 40's Hz. While the overtones define the characteristic timbre, there is still plenty of fundamental in those sounds. Of course, I can't compare the recorded tuba sound with my own playing--playing the instrument leads to all sorts of cranial vibration that affects perceived hearing. But I've had all manner of other tuba players in my house trying out instruments and comparing notes (so to speak), and do not find that my Revel speakers are incapable of producing the full sound of the instrument. A good player can probably achieve a higher level than those speakers, though that's not a test many will tolerate. But the timbre is correct.

I suspect a lot of what's down below 40 Hz is modal reverberation in the recording space more than music, but if it's a good recording space I probably want to hear that. When I installed a (necessary) sub to bolster the low-end response of my Canton GL260 speakers at my electronics bench, I found that it was very easily overdone, calling unrealistic attention to itself. I'm sure it was ringing that space, which has a linear dimension of 60 feet at its longest and can resonate pretty low standing waves. I had to back it waaaaay down to keep the system from sounding like I was hearing it through closed windows. Those speakers roll off about 70 or 80 Hz, and that's where I started with the crossover, but when I put it there, the hole in the lower mid bass was annoyingly obvious. I didn't achieve a seamless sound, where the sub's presence was undetectable, until I raised the crossover to as high as it would go (160 Hz, I believe). It's not localizable because it's on a shelf below the top of my workbench, which prevents on-axis sound. I didn't measure anything and did it all by ear in about ten minutes, but when I thought it sounded like real music, I wasn't even sure I had it turned up enough to be audible until I turned it off and suddenly it again sounded like a transistor radio. Yes, it helped immensely. But those speakers only have single 5" woofers and their porting increases low-frequency Q, and this thread is about full-range towers in comparison.

My Revels, on the other hand, have a pair of 8" woofers in each cabinet plus a mid-range (NOT a mid-woofer like later versions), with the same radiating area as an 11" driver. It would take a fairly large sub to deepen that usefully, it seems to me. I'm sure there's music that would benefit from it, but I'm equally sure I have very little of that music in my library. Higher-end Revels have an additional woofer or two.

As to Fletcher-Munson, we must acknowledge that our reduced ability to hear low frequencies affects our perception of live music, not just recorded music. A tuba playing a 39 Hz Eb1 at 70 dB SPL (unweighted) (and there are several of those in Shostakovich's 5th, for example) may sound about as loud the clarinet's 990 Hz B5 played at 40 dB, but that's the way the musicians will play it if that is their objective. That's one reason my tuba has a bell diameter of 20" and the clarinet a 20th of that. The playback system does not have to provide that additional bass amplification--it's already there in the recorded levels if that is the musical intent (and if the recording engineer didn't screw it up). The playback system can produce that if it can produce pink noise flatly. The amp may run out of power on the low note before the high note, or the speakers may bottom out or compress on those frequencies at the desired overall listening level, but Revels driven by a 350wpc amp don't seem to.

1221LtEQWaterfall.jpg


Rick "easy to see the house's air handling system in that graphic" Denney
 
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I consider myself knowledgeable (but definitely not as much as several others here remotely), but total extension to 20Hz doesn't make a difference that impacts my musical enjoyment in any way. Accuracy and balance and presence (staging) do far more to me than being able to hear a Tyrannosaur hop around.
I like to hear the sound of the space (echos and their decays, room modes, etc.) in which the recording was made. It greatly helps to make the reproduction more realistic and requires extended bass response. Not instead of (Accuracy and balance and presence (staging) but in addition.

I suspect a lot of what's down below 40 Hz is modal reverberation in the recording space more than music, but if it's a good recording space I probably want to hear that.
Yup.
 
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Hey guys,


I found this thread because, as always, I’m trying to improve my setup. Right now I’ve got a WiiM Ultra working as a DAC, streamer, and preamp. I’ve got my TV hooked up via HDMI, a CD transport through optical, and my turntable going into a phono preamp, which then feeds the WiiM’s line input. The WiiM is connected to a Hypex Nilai 500 dual mono power amp, and that drives a pair of Monitor Audio Silver 100 7G speakers. My listening room is about 24 m².


I’m really happy with my system, but I wanted to explore ways to make it even better without spending a fortune. I was wondering if adding an SVS 3000 Micro subwoofer would improve the sound by giving me more low-end extension and maybe a bit more dynamics and clarity, since my speakers wouldn’t have to dig so deep into the bass. I can use the WiiM’s dedicated sub output, and I’ve got a UMIK-1 mic and REW, so I can measure and apply basic corrections using the WiiM’s 10-band PEQ.


Honestly, I’m not as experienced as most of you, and this would be my first time integrating a subwoofer. I’m a bit worried the result might not sound clean. Should I go down this path, or keep it simple and get some floorstanders that fit in my 24 m² room and extend the low end? Like I said, I’m not an expert, so maybe I missed something basic when explaining my question.


Thanks, everyone!
 
Hey guys,


I found this thread because, as always, I’m trying to improve my setup. Right now I’ve got a WiiM Ultra working as a DAC, streamer, and preamp. I’ve got my TV hooked up via HDMI, a CD transport through optical, and my turntable going into a phono preamp, which then feeds the WiiM’s line input. The WiiM is connected to a Hypex Nilai 500 dual mono power amp, and that drives a pair of Monitor Audio Silver 100 7G speakers. My listening room is about 24 m².


I’m really happy with my system, but I wanted to explore ways to make it even better without spending a fortune. I was wondering if adding an SVS 3000 Micro subwoofer would improve the sound by giving me more low-end extension and maybe a bit more dynamics and clarity, since my speakers wouldn’t have to dig so deep into the bass. I can use the WiiM’s dedicated sub output, and I’ve got a UMIK-1 mic and REW, so I can measure and apply basic corrections using the WiiM’s 10-band PEQ.


Honestly, I’m not as experienced as most of you, and this would be my first time integrating a subwoofer. I’m a bit worried the result might not sound clean. Should I go down this path, or keep it simple and get some floorstanders that fit in my 24 m² room and extend the low end? Like I said, I’m not an expert, so maybe I missed something basic when explaining my question.


Thanks, everyone!

I would add a subwoofer. It will sound clean if tuned properly, but it will take some time and patience to do so. Keep in mind that every room and system are different; what may be optimal in someone else's room and system may not be optimal for your room and system. As an example, in my office I can't crossover any higher than 40Hz without being able to audibly detect the subwoofer's location. In my family room I am crossed over at 100Hz and don't audibly detect the subwoofer's location, but it is using a miniDSP with much steaper crossover slopes, the room is much bigger, and the subwoofer is in a corner, which is not the case in my office..

With the WiiM, I would start by setting the crossover at 80Hz, and use REW to adjust the time delay of the subwoofer to get it in phase with the speakers. If you cannot audibly detect the subwoofer's location, great, then finish tuning to address room modes and smooth frequency response in the transition region between the subwoofer and speakers. If you can audibly detect the subwoofer's location, then lower the crossover frequency and repeat.

EDIT: Also, if you run into an issue where you have difficulty getting a smooth transition between the subwoofer and the speakers, you may want to experiment with plugging the ports on the speakers. That worked well with my family room speakers, but others have reported that it did not work well with their speakers. If plugging the ports you will lose low end extension on the speakers, so you will not be able to crossover as low.
 
Hey guys,


I found this thread because, as always, I’m trying to improve my setup. Right now I’ve got a WiiM Ultra working as a DAC, streamer, and preamp. I’ve got my TV hooked up via HDMI, a CD transport through optical, and my turntable going into a phono preamp, which then feeds the WiiM’s line input. The WiiM is connected to a Hypex Nilai 500 dual mono power amp, and that drives a pair of Monitor Audio Silver 100 7G speakers. My listening room is about 24 m².


I’m really happy with my system, but I wanted to explore ways to make it even better without spending a fortune. I was wondering if adding an SVS 3000 Micro subwoofer would improve the sound by giving me more low-end extension and maybe a bit more dynamics and clarity, since my speakers wouldn’t have to dig so deep into the bass. I can use the WiiM’s dedicated sub output, and I’ve got a UMIK-1 mic and REW, so I can measure and apply basic corrections using the WiiM’s 10-band PEQ.


Honestly, I’m not as experienced as most of you, and this would be my first time integrating a subwoofer. I’m a bit worried the result might not sound clean. Should I go down this path, or keep it simple and get some floorstanders that fit in my 24 m² room and extend the low end? Like I said, I’m not an expert, so maybe I missed something basic when explaining my question.


Thanks, everyone!
Short, answer: yes. Adding a good sub can help in all the areas you mentioned - from filling in the bottom end to improving dynamics and clarity.

Long answer:
A decent sub will certainly flesh out the bottom end of your sound. Your Silver 100's are optimistically rated by MA at -6 dB @ 35 Hz in room, which means they're relying on room loading to reach that low, even at just 1/4 of the original acoustic power. I would recommend crossing those over somewhere between 60 and 80 Hz.

Relieving your speakers of bass reproduction duties will also improve the clarity and dynamics of your system by reducing heat and distortion in your Silver 100's, because they won't be straining to reach those bass notes. The speaker distortion graphs posted on this site and others clearly show that distortion begins to increase dramatically as a speaker approaches its lower bound. Furthermore, most of the heat inside the speaker's enclosure, which typically leads to dynamic compression, results from the current demand of signals in the bass region.
 
Hey guys,


I found this thread because, as always, I’m trying to improve my setup. Right now I’ve got a WiiM Ultra working as a DAC, streamer, and preamp. I’ve got my TV hooked up via HDMI, a CD transport through optical, and my turntable going into a phono preamp, which then feeds the WiiM’s line input. The WiiM is connected to a Hypex Nilai 500 dual mono power amp, and that drives a pair of Monitor Audio Silver 100 7G speakers. My listening room is about 24 m².


I’m really happy with my system, but I wanted to explore ways to make it even better without spending a fortune. I was wondering if adding an SVS 3000 Micro subwoofer would improve the sound by giving me more low-end extension and maybe a bit more dynamics and clarity, since my speakers wouldn’t have to dig so deep into the bass. I can use the WiiM’s dedicated sub output, and I’ve got a UMIK-1 mic and REW, so I can measure and apply basic corrections using the WiiM’s 10-band PEQ.


Honestly, I’m not as experienced as most of you, and this would be my first time integrating a subwoofer. I’m a bit worried the result might not sound clean. Should I go down this path, or keep it simple and get some floorstanders that fit in my 24 m² room and extend the low end? Like I said, I’m not an expert, so maybe I missed something basic when explaining my question.


Thanks, everyone!
A well integrated sub could certainly help but integration is always a big issue, much bigger than you would be lead to believe from the sub manufacturers. I have 2 SVS SB-3000 subs which I don't use because integration can be very hard because of the built in non defeatable DSP. The main issues is ~6.0 ms "DSP delay" so unless your bass management has the ability to delay the main compared to the subs you are going to have suboptimal results. The other issue with these small sealed subs is that they usually over boost the LF to get better marketing numbers but then have to use a very strong "high-pass protection filter" which causes group delay and very unusual impulse / step responses which make time alignment very difficult even if you do have the bass management to do it. Then factor in trying to integrate ported mains with sealed sub and trying to match the acoustic curves for the crossover and it is no wonder it is so hard to integrate subs. In essence you are trying to become a speaker designer under the worst possible conditions with unmatched drivers and the inability to do accurate measurements (In room LF measurements are inherently problematic).

I have gone full circle on the this as I used to believe that small satellite speakers and subs were the way to go because you seperate that sub from the mains to get smoother response. After a lot of expensive trial and error I now think 2 full range speakers (or as close to full range as you can afford and fit in your room) is a better solution. The LF crossovers are designed and tested by engineers with good equipment and know distances between the drivers with known driver responses. In addition you no longer have to "sum to mono" like you do with sub(s). Summing to mono is OK sometimes and other times not as you are throwing away information and creating a different signal than on the original recording. As far as smoother measured response goes subs are usually better at this but with speaker placement and some light DSP I find I get response that may not measure quite as smooth but that I prefer. Humans have evolved with the ability to "hear through the room" so the way a microphone measures sound and the way we hear sound are not the same and "measured dips" looks much worse on a graph than they sound in a room. Peaks can be successfully managed with DSP, dips can not be.

My random internet recommendation is "floorstanders / full range" speakers without sub for the reasons above. Enjoy in any case.
 
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I was wondering if adding an SVS 3000 Micro subwoofer would improve the sound.... this would be my first time integrating a subwoofer.

I hope you don't mind me tossing out some ideas aimed at getting good results on your first try.

The biggest sound quality hurdle in the subwoofer region tends to be room interaction. A subwoofer (or any fullrange speaker, for that matter) will inevitably interact with the room in a way that produces peaks and dips in the frequency response in the bass region. These peaks and dips will happen at different frequencies if you move either the subwoofer or the listener, but there is no location where they disappear. You can use EQ to eliminate the peaks at the listening position, but that same EQ will actually make the frequency response worse elsewhere in the room.

I suggest, if possible, instead of getting one small sub, get two smaller subs and place them in dissimilar locations. Like maybe one along the front wall somewhere to the left of the left speaker, and the other one on the right side wall and a very different distance from its nearest corner than the first sub's distance from that left-front corner. If they are small, maybe even put one on top of a bookcase! The reason for distributing them out asymmetrically is this: Each sub will interact with the room very differently, and therefore will produce a very different room-interaction peak-and-dip pattern. But the SUM of these two dissimilar peak-and-dip patterns will be much smoother than any one alone, and this improved smoothness will extend throughout the room. (Many people use three or four or more subs this way, but two small subs intelligently distributed are ime still generally a worthwhile sound quality improvement over one bigger sub.)

When it comes to actually integrating your subs with your Monitor Audio speakers, imo you want to roll off the bottom end of your Monitor Audios around 80 Hz or so. This will improve their sound quality.

Powered subs typically have controls for gain and low-pass filter frequency, and sometimes a phase control. Here is the sequence I suggest: Gain, Frequency, Phase. The Gain control makes the biggest difference; next the Frequency control; and finally the Phase control makes the smallest difference. First adjust the Gain control for a good blend with your mains. Next, adjust the Frequency control to get an improvement. Then adjust the Phase control (if your sub has one) to see if that helps. Then go back and adjust the Gain control again, assuming you made changes to the other two. Cycle through this process a few times. If you still can't get a good blend, move at least one of your subs and try again.

You may find yourself making small adjustments to the Gain control over the course of your first few days with the sub(s). This is normal. Not only are you learning what sounds right to you ("too much bass" can be fun for a while), but the ear is disproportionately sensitive to very small changes in SPL in the bass region. And the "Gain" knob on the sub(s) is probably tiny, making fine-tuning the Gain more time-consuming that it would otherwise be.

Very best of luck with your endeavor!
 
I would add a subwoofer. It will sound clean if tuned properly, but it will take some time and patience to do so. Keep in mind that every room and system are different; what may be optimal in someone else's room and system may not be optimal for your room and system. As an example, in my office I can't crossover any higher than 40Hz without being able to audibly detect the subwoofer's location. In my family room I am crossed over at 100Hz and don't audibly detect the subwoofer's location, but it is using a miniDSP with much steaper crossover slopes, the room is much bigger, and the subwoofer is in a corner, which is not the case in my office..

With the WiiM, I would start by setting the crossover at 80Hz, and use REW to adjust the time delay of the subwoofer to get it in phase with the speakers. If you cannot audibly detect the subwoofer's location, great, then finish tuning to address room modes and smooth frequency response in the transition region between the subwoofer and speakers. If you can audibly detect the subwoofer's location, then lower the crossover frequency and repeat.

EDIT: Also, if you run into an issue where you have difficulty getting a smooth transition between the subwoofer and the speakers, you may want to experiment with plugging the ports on the speakers. That worked well with my family room speakers, but others have reported that it did not work well with their speakers. If plugging the ports you will lose low end extension on the speakers, so you will not be able to crossover as low.
Hi Terry,
Thanks a lot for your feedback and tips! If I end up going for the subwoofer, I promise I’ll follow them. From what I’ve heard, you can set up crossover, phase control, and speaker sync right from the WiiM app, but I’m not sure if anyone here has enough experience to say if those controls actually work well.


Either way, if I go for it, I was already planning to measure everything with the UMIK and REW too. Good to know about plugging the rear ports on the speakers—if I move forward with the measurements, I’ll share the results here.


Also, if I choose the sub option, I still get to keep my current speakers, which feels like a win. The other route seems simpler but way more expensive, and honestly, I don’t mind experimenting… though I really hope I don’t mess it up!


Thanks again!
 
Short, answer: yes. Adding a good sub can help in all the areas you mentioned - from filling in the bottom end to improving dynamics and clarity.

Long answer:
A decent sub will certainly flesh out the bottom end of your sound. Your Silver 100's are optimistically rated by MA at -6 dB @ 35 Hz in room, which means they're relying on room loading to reach that low, even at just 1/4 of the original acoustic power. I would recommend crossing those over somewhere between 60 and 80 Hz.

Relieving your speakers of bass reproduction duties will also improve the clarity and dynamics of your system by reducing heat and distortion in your Silver 100's, because they won't be straining to reach those bass notes. The speaker distortion graphs posted on this site and others clearly show that distortion begins to increase dramatically as a speaker approaches its lower bound. Furthermore, most of the heat inside the speaker's enclosure, which typically leads to dynamic compression, results from the current demand of signals in the bass region.
Hi Anton,
Thanks for your reply! I’m pretty clear on the theoretical benefits, it’s just that I’m not sure if going with floorstanders is a cleaner, more practical solution that gives a more coherent sound without having to tweak different elements.


That said, I’d really love the experience of trying to integrate a sub—I just hope I manage to do it right!
 
A well integrated sub could certainly help but integration is always a big issue, much bigger than you would be lead to believe from the sub manufacturers. I have 2 SVS SB-3000 subs which I don't use because integration can be very hard because of the built in non defeatable DSP. The main issues is ~6.0 ms "DSP delay" so unless your bass management has the ability to delay the main compared to the subs you are going to have suboptimal results. The other issue with these small sealed subs is that they usually over boost the LF to get better marketing numbers but then have to use a very strong "high-pass protection filter" which causes group delay and very unusual impulse / step responses which make time alignment very difficult even if you do have the bass management to do it. Then factor in trying to integrate ported mains with sealed sub and trying to match the acoustic curves for the crossover and it is no wonder it is so hard to integrate subs. In essence you are trying to become a speaker designer under the worst possible conditions with unmatched drivers and the inability to do accurate measurements (In room LF measurements are inherently problematic).

I have gone full circle on the this as I used to believe that small satellite speakers and subs were the way to go because you seperate that sub from the mains to get smoother response. After a lot of expensive trial and error I now think 2 full range speakers (or as close to full range as you can afford and fit in your room) is a better solution. The LF crossovers are designed and tested by engineers with good equipment and know distances between the drivers with known driver responses. In addition you no longer have to "sum to mono" like you do with sub(s). Summing to mono is OK sometimes and other times not as you are throwing away information and creating a different signal than on the original recording. As far as smoother measured response goes subs are usually better at this but with speaker placement and some light DSP I find I get response that may not measure quite as smooth but that I prefer. Humans have evolved with the ability to "hear through the room" so the way a microphone measures sound and the way we hear sound are not the same and "measured dips" looks much worse on a graph than they sound in a room. Peaks can be successfully managed with DSP, dips can not be.

My random internet recommendation is "floorstanders / full range" speakers without sub for the reasons above. Enjoy in any case.
Hi Levi,
Thanks for sharing your experience! Like I said before, part of me really wants to experiment—make the most of my current setup, take measurements, fine-tune the sub integration, and hopefully get a great sound with deep, clean bass for both music and movies.


But, as I mentioned to someone else (and based on what you’re saying), I’m wondering if diving into this project will just mean going in circles, only to end up buying floorstanders that give a more integrated and coherent result from the start.


From your experience, even with a preamp like the WiiM that offers features like Auto Time Alignment, Crossover, Sub & Speaker Sync, phase adjustment—and using REW with a mic—is it still that hard to get a satisfying result?


Also, about what you said on mono: does adding a second sub fix that? Of course, if I have to add a second sub, things get more complicated since my listening room is my living room, and I’ve got everything set up to keep it practical for everyday life. More boxes and cables could be a pain.


For now, I need to think this through.
 
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