What's the point of floorstanding when we have subwoofers?

[ZolaIII]

It dosent have to do anything with "stereo bass"! Standing waves are standing waves and they sum naturally with each sub given it's chenel close to the main speaker it extends. How ever knew for psy how we hear equal loudness is at 105 Hz so you need that part to be done on sub's especially if it's a significant boost and crossover above it to autended it and ensure that it doesn't propagate unwanted fundamentals from it. There is no floor-standing speakers that will do that correctly. At the best you get more capacity for main bass (where second peek will be for most gernes and materials) and cut of with proper crossover at low mids beginning and for the same reasons.

 

[sigbergaudio]

I think the question is more why would i change my frontspeakers to ie crossover at 80hz and send all the bassignals to the one subwoofer that is meant to present the seperate LFE channel while this is not the optimal setup for stereo-music the same time.

I use my 40hz fronts set to full and have a dedicated subwoofer in the middle of the front connected to pre-amp (L/R) to support them on the frontsignal.

Same time i have a dedicated subwoofer on the rear to present the LFE channel without crossover interferences... Its not active on stereo-frontsignals at all this way.

So when a stereosignal sends bass only on the left, then the right frontspeaker doesnt present it and the sub presents it only at very low volume, since its only half-channel and vice versa.
Only when basssignal is both L+R the mono-subwoofer in the middle of the front supports them at full power.

Thats enough extra power to me.

There are a few "problems" with this approach. How big of a problem they are will vary.

1a. If your loudspeakers have a dip below 80hz, and you don't highpass the speakers, that dip will still be there at least to an extent even if you put a subwoofer somewhere else.

1b. If your loudspeakers have a peak below 80hz, you have the same problem as above. And even though you could EQ this down, this might not be ideal since that means the same frequency is EQed down on your subs as well (since they're being fed with the same signal), even though the peak may not be present there.

2.If you don't highpass your loudspeakers, there are probably already "enough" bass, so the subwoofers must be playing at a very low level to not ruin the tonality. So the subwoofers aren't really contributing much, and/or must be crossed over very very low (and as a consequence are still not contributing much).

3. You are not really adding any headroom or extra capacity to the system.

 

[sigbergaudio]

My fronts are in biamp so the highs and mids have their own channel and the bassdrivers have their own channel. There is no too much bass... Doesnt ruin tonality for me. Dude, i can modify the frontsubs tonality with lowpassfilter (crossover), level-gain and boost, and i can unpower it too if -12db gain is not enough.

It is contributing a lot and it adds headroom... I have it for a reason, dude.

There is no problem... Not even a tiny one.

I am glad to hear that you are happy.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Thanks, but please, its 2x ~100W for 2 bassdrivers per frontspeakers.
When i add a 200W subwoofer with preout... Sure thats a adds lot more power (headroom for high volume).
Its not the highs and mids limiting the volume... Its the bass, of course.
200W+200W is lot more sound pressure than just 200W only front or only sub, double the energy for both (+3db)

This only works if you are able to highpass the mains or turn down the bass drivers of the loudspeakers (as you apparently can with your biamping, but this is not a typical situation).

Otherwise the subwoofers won't add headroom because at any given level the loudspeakers will still be strained as before, as nothing has been done to give them less to do.

 

[sigbergaudio]

??? The mains are connected the normal way via front L/R.
I just add extra power to bass with 1 frontsub via pre-out.
Thats is significantly boosting stereo-power on the bassline when the fronts alone are just to weak. Cmon... Whats your problem?

No problem on my end, I'm just sharing the typical issues with this type of setup. This is not an attempt to offend you or disrespect how you have set up your system.

If your main speakers don't have enough bass, adding subs will of course help with that. But most speakers have enough bass on their own, unless they were specifically designed for subs of course.

 

[dshreter]

The benefit of large main speakers is more about providing controlled directivity to lower frequencies than it is about accomplishing subwoofer duties. A subwoofer (or two) does not substitute all of the benefits of large speakers above say 100 Hz.

 

[sigbergaudio]

I dont know how much power your fronts can draw in total but on tracks like this:

I doubt they can present this the way it is meant to be listened to at high volume.
You need somewhat... And a frontsub gives a lot more soundpressure. My frontspeakers cant present those tracks alone.
With a frontsub supporting them its a charme... Lot more volume, lot more sound pressure, later clipping and you see that on the led of the sub while the fronts dont feature that so if you place the control panel of the back of frontsub to the top, so can you can see and manually change the settings (crossover,gainlevel,boostfrequency) anytime is quite a big gain in quality and loudness.

I have very powerful fronts, but that's not important to the discussion really.

I certainly agree that subwoofers are beneficial, I'm just saying if you don't highpass the mains, they will not gain any headroom. They receive the same signal as before, so they will have the same problems at 100dB or however loud you are playing as before. You will have more bass of course, but you cannot play any louder without having problems with the mains.

And if your speakers were tonally neutral to begin with, you will now have too much bass. But it sounds like perhaps your speakers then had to little bass to begin with, and it is now the correct amount with the subs, which is great.

If you are high passing the mains or in some other way are giving them less bass, that is of course another matter, but you specifically said you were running your main speakers full range.

There's nothing inherently wrong with this approach, and it appears to work well for you, so that is great.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Or take this...

No way that the fronts alone or the sub alone can draw this stuff through my flat at that power level.

The door in the next room is vibrating like hell man when that bassline drops through... Sure it adds headroom to have a sub of the same power than the mains adding them up.

I'm not sure why what I am writing is so hard to understand, perhaps try to read everything again with an open mind?

 

[sigbergaudio]

Sure the fronts themselves dont gain headroom but the additional sub gains the total headroom at the same volume setting, so you get a lot more basspower. Thats all i say.

Mids and height typically dont require headroom in terms of power. Its the bass people need the energy for.

I will try to be as clear as possible. Please read everything.

0. This is a general comment on this type of setup, this is not a comment on your specific setup or situation.

1. Most good loudspeakers will have a neutral / correct tonality without subwoofers, meaning that there is enough bass without subwoofers. Often even too much and/or uneven bass, due to room gain and peaks in the room.

2. Derived from the previous point: If you add a subwoofer without high passing the loudspeakers, you will need to do the following to avoid getting too much bass: Cross over the subwoofer very low so that it does not overlap with the loudspeaker, and/or have the volume of the subwoofer very low as to not add to the perceived bass energy.

3. Derived from the previous point: If you do not high pass the mains, and you keep the subwoofer volume so low that the perceived bass energy is the same, your maximum SPL level will still be the same, aka no additional headroom. The system perhaps now has a little more deep bass, which will of course be welcome.


A possible situation where the above may not be accurate, which may be the situation you are in:

Your speakers have too little bass in-room to begin with. In this situation you can turn the subwoofer up more, and/or cross it over higher. You still can't really play any louder, but you will have more bass at any given SPL level, which is good since you had too little to begin with.

 

[Pieter1267]

I have big Revel F208 speakers capable of well below 50hz but ive tested many configs and 80, 90, 100 hz crossover not only helps with some nulls from the mains i cant cure because room placement, it just sounds much better with 2 subs taking over. The mid and high are still very amazing from the Revels, unique and it will be difficult to find bookshelfs giving the same. I use various configs for various music genres.

 

[Blockader]

Floorstanders speakers typically include multiple woofers(playing in the same frequency range) which helps minimize the frequency response dips and peaks caused by floor bounce. Even if a bookshelf speaker and subwoofer setup measures identically to a floorstander in anechoic conditions, the floorstander with multiple woofers will generally perform better in a real room due to reduced interference from floor reflections.

A subwoofer with multiple vertically aligned drivers can also help mitigate these floor bounce effects but they are rare.

 

[kyuu]

Floorstanders speakers typically include multiple woofers(playing in the same frequency range) which helps minimize the frequency response dips and peaks caused by floor bounce. Even if a bookshelf speaker and subwoofer setup measures identically to a floorstander in anechoic conditions, the floorstander with multiple woofers will generally perform better in a real room due to reduced interference from floor reflections.

A subwoofer with multiple vertically aligned drivers can also help mitigate these floor bounce effects but they are rare.

Are you referring to the lobing between the woofers in the vertical plane reducing the floor bounce, or some other mechanism? If the former, wouldn't that lobing simply color the reflections by reducing the energy in the region affected by the lobing while leaving other parts of the spectrum unaffected?

 

[sigbergaudio]

Its not just black or white, that they have or not have enough to begin with, it depends on how loud i wanna go with what kind of music and how low the frequencies are in it. My 40hz (-3db) Teufel Ultima 40 have some power for listening to a lot of music at quite a loud level, but for higher demands in the bass region, and loudness >100db just powering a frontsub to support them works nicely.

But ya, you're probably right, buying even bigger better expensivier fronspeakers wont require additional sub. You happy now?

This is about sharing information, not making me happy.

My point has never been that you don't need subs (two of our three speaker systems are explicitly designed to require subwoofers). My point is that one will normally gain more headroom by highpassing the mains, and also enable more linear bass, as explained in earlier posts with regards to nulls and peaks.

 

[audiofooled]

two of our three speaker systems are explicitly designed to require subwoofers

The latest ones that don't, and why they do if you happen to have some anyway?

 

[sigbergaudio]

The latest ones that don't, and why they do if you happen to have some anyway?

Can you please rephrase this, I'm not sure I understand what you are asking.

 

[audiofooled]

Can you please rephrase this, I'm not sure I understand what you are asking.

I meant your floorstanders with and without subs. Do you find sub benefits greatly diminished, or are they still considerably adding to the bass quality?

 

[sigbergaudio]

I meant your floorstanders with and without subs. Do you find sub benefits greatly diminished, or are they still considerably adding to the bass quality?

I have never tried them with subs - but they are explicitly designed to sound like a well integrated subwoofer systems (the drivers in the rear are subwoofer drivers), so I would not imagine high passing them and adding subwoofers would add considerably to the bass quality as such.

What could be improved by doing this is bass linearity (and potentially capacity depending on the subs) as you would then have the option of placing the subwoofers other places in the room.

 

[JohnnyNG]

I'd guess this has been discussed but running at higher levels many (most?) ~6.5" bookshelf speakers run out of steam well before they reach an 80Hz crossover to a sub. A floorstander (assuming it's not also a small driver in a larger cabinet) can potentially stay much cleaner approaching and through the crossover region. And you'd really like linearity well below an 80Hz crossover which is even further beyond the reach of a typical bookshelf speaker.

 

[EJ3]

I'd guess this has been discussed but running at higher levels many (most?) ~6.5" bookshelf speakers run out of steam well before they reach an 80Hz crossover to a sub. A floorstander (assuming it's not also a small driver in a larger cabinet) can potentially stay much cleaner approaching and through the crossover region. And you'd really like linearity well below an 80Hz crossover which is even further beyond the reach of a typical bookshelf speaker.

I have never seen anyone's home that had any main speakers that had less than 8" woofers (unless it was a Minimus 7 style speaker that was meant to [and being]) used with a sub or 2.
For other purposes (workshop, boat, car. yes I have) but for the main house system, even my 91 year old mother has 8" ported woofers in her "book-shelf" speakers. They are crossed over 60 Hz High Pass, 80 Hz low pass.

 

[JohnnyNG]

even my 91 year old mother has 8" ported woofers in her "book-shelf" speakers.

She's awesome. I fondly remember setting up a couple systems for mom that were really more than she needed but she indulged me...