What's the next logical upgrade following the HD6XX?

[Fluffy]

Dude you are messing with the building blocks of this Forum too then! We strive for accuracy here. To us, stuff which deviates from it are poorly engineered. So there must be one anchor on target sound we should be focussing on for measurments and reviews. Nothing wrong against it.

That's not my point… ok, try for a second to define "soundstage". Can you come up with a simple measurement that tells you what headphone has more soundstage? How can you even technically define soundstage? Well you can't, really. It's a subjective term that stems from psychoacoustic perceptions and is created inside the brain. And still, RTINGS has a table of headphones rated by soundstage, and they can explain to you in a very scientific-sounding way how did they come up with that measurement. But they are not really measuring soundstage. They are measuring a conformance to some kind of target response that according to their conjecture, is correlated with soundstage. It's not really scientific or accurate, it's just some method to allocate ratings so they can rate stuff.

And as Jimbob54 said, a target curve is also not a universally defined engineering goal. Target curves are also basically a conjecture as to what most people will probably prefer. Some target curves rely on very strong scientific foundations, but they are not absolute and preferences shifts over time. It's not like saying "we need as little distortion as possible".

 

[Jimbob54]

The original HD800 can be found for within your budget. You probably won't get any substantial increase in bass though. I was a long time HD600 user and really enjoyed the HD800 every time I got to audition it.

Ditto. Love my second hand hd800.

 

[ishmeister]

Having owned both the HD600 and DT1990 until recently, I think the DT1990 is an upgrade for the most part but you have to be willing to tame the 8 khz peak. I also think there is too much energy around 16khz. This is with the analytical (A) pads. If you reduce the treble then the rest of the FR is actually very good.

I think the balanced (B) pads don't sound good at all. I also have the Dekoni Elite Velour pads and my experience with them is very mixed. The amount of bass is immense but there is too much mid bass (sub bass is excellent though). Soundstage is increased but mids are also reduced relative to the A pads, so vocals and instruments lack presence. Mids sound very distant, which I really didn't enjoy. Treble with the Dekoni pads is phenominal - so fast and clean. They don't have as much air but actually it is where I like it (since I EQ down 16khz, as mentioned above). Upper treble is still a tiny bit forward of where I like it. So I decided to return to the A pads since I was going to use EQ anyway and I can also still use them with Sonarworks.

I also have to say that both the HD600 and 1990 are mildly uncomfortable in their own ways. The headband is the problem for the 1990 (not soft or wide enough to distribute the pressure) and jaw clamp is my issue with the HD600.

 

[KeithPhantom]

I will add a screenshot of a similar thread and my answer. I hope you find it useful:

 

[ShiZo]

Focal clear or not worth in my opinion.

 

[Racheski]

I basically was in the exact same position a couple months ago - looking to upgrade from the HD6XX. I tested the dt 1990 pro, Elex, and finally settled on the Aeon 2 Open (in that order).

DT 1990 Pro
Built like a tank and aesthetically pleasing at the same time - oozes quality & solid engineering when you hold them. That's the only thing I liked about them. I found the clamping force to be brutal - I couldn't go more than 10 min without feeling like my head was going to explode. High-pitched vocals were sibilant at times, and the treble was quite harsh. I didn't experiment with EQ'ing them and the pads didn't solve the treble issue for me.

Focal Elex
Really enjoyed the sound on these, especially the sub-bass and bass response. The mids and highs sound similar to the HD6XX IMO, just with more detail. The dealbreaker for me was comfort - the Elex felt very heavy on my ears and would start to hurt after 45 min of listening, but others have found them comfortable so YMMV.

Aeon2 Open
Very very happy with A2O. They are very light and comfortable, sound fantastic with all genre of music, and I love the clever folding design. My only complaint is the connectors are kinda weird (Hirose 4-pin), so it's a little bit harder to find affordable after-market cables.

GL!

 

[TheSacredSoul]

Hey guys thanks for all the feedback! I decided on the DT1990Pro partly because of all the amazing reviews and also how easy they were to get(a local shop had 1 last piece left and had it delivered within a couple of hours). Really happy with it. Tried Oratory's EQ but it seems to mess up sound too much for my liking. Using a single filter at -10dB at 8333Hz with Q at 5. Seems to control that treble. If you guys have any other EQ settings, please let me know.

 

[Rayman30]

Stretch by $200 and my vote goes to ZMF Aeolus, they are very well received by reviewers and have a warmer sound similar to Sennheiser HD6XX.

 

[solderdude]

Hey guys thanks for all the feedback! I decided on the DT1990Pro partly because of all the amazing reviews and also how easy they were to get(a local shop had 1 last piece left and had it delivered within a couple of hours). Really happy with it. Tried Oratory's EQ but it seems to mess up sound too much for my liking. Using a single filter at -10dB at 8333Hz with Q at 5. Seems to control that treble. If you guys have any other EQ settings, please let me know.

When using it somewhere without access to parametric EQ then there is a passive filter solution doing just that.

 

[Racheski]

Stretch by $200 and my vote goes to ZMF Aeolus, they are very well received by reviewers and have a warmer sound similar to Sennheiser HD6XX.

If you can find the Aeolus for $700 please let me know where

 

[TheSacredSoul]

When using it somewhere without access to parametric EQ then there is a passive filter solution doing just that.

I do all my listening locally using JRiver so no issues with ParaEQ here

 

[TheSacredSoul]

When using it somewhere without access to parametric EQ then there is a passive filter solution doing just that.

Oh, sorry, I just noticed your username! I saw the schematic of the filter here : https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/measurements/brands-a-i/dt-1990-pro/

It states the filter ONLY works correctly when driven with ampls with low Ohmic output resistance. Does this mean something like an Atom stack wont work?

 

[solderdude]

Oh, sorry, I just noticed your username! I saw the schematic of the filter here : https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/measurements/brands-a-i/dt-1990-pro/

It states the filter ONLY works correctly when driven with ampls with low Ohmic output resistance. Does this mean something like an Atom stack wont work?

It works correctly on any output resistance below 50 Ohm. When someone uses an amp with 120 Ohm or even higher then the filter will be somewhat less effective on the 250 Ohm Beyerdynamic headphones.

 

[TheSacredSoul]

It works correctly on any output resistance below 50 Ohm. When someone uses an amp with 120 Ohm or even higher then the filter will be somewhat less effective on the 250 Ohm Beyerdynamic headphones.

Is output resistance same as output impedance? According to JDS, its 0.1 Ohms?

https://jdslabs.com/product/atom-amp/

 

[solderdude]

In this case yes, Impedance is a more complex load (inductive, capacitive and resistive) such as a speaker/headphone has (in my vocabulary).
Resistance (to my vocabulary) implies that within the bandwidth used the output is (mostly) resistive (acting as a resistor).
Of course outputs of amps aren't purely resistive when looking at it technically but I like to differentiate resistance and impedance this way.

A planar headphone for instance acts as a resistor and I could say it has a resistance but because it is a driver I still say it has an impedance albeit mostly resistive. Semantics with a bit of freewheeling it in my case.

So yes, the output resistance is 0,1 Ohm in the JDS amps.

 

[maverickronin]

My only complaint is the connectors are kinda weird (Hirose 4-pin), so it's a little bit harder to find affordable after-market cables.

The stock cable is a mess too. It's thick, heavy, and the nylon techflex rubs again itself for horrible microphonics.

DCA does sell the connectors at reasonable prices so you can make your own cables. They're Chinese knock-offs, but they seem well made and are less than half the price of the name brand. These Hirose style connectors are a PITA to work with though.

First of all you need to buy an extra female jack to mate with the male end and unscrew its center from the outer shell. Second, screwing it back in will rip out your soldered connections if you aren't extra careful. Third, to hold the cable in place after reassembly, the connector comes with a brass clamp which seem to require a custom crimping tool and a pitifully short set screw that's supposed to press against the brass clamp and keep it from twisting. This will basically only work with a cable of exactly the right size. I ended up filling it with epoxy instead...

Not exactly the most on topic, but I needed to rant about my first time working with Hirose connectors after spending 3 hours reterminating the headphone end of an HD650 cable for use with my Aeon 2 closed last Saturday.

On the plus side they are awesome once you have the damn things finished. They seem a lot more durable and mechanically stronger than 2.5/3.5 mm jacks or the other weird proprietary connectors that some companies like to use and much easier to connect and disconnect than mini XLRs which match them on that front.

 

[Jimbob54]

I will add a screenshot of a similar thread and my answer. I hope you find it useful: View attachment 69436

Wasnt aware the HD6 family ever got much criticism or myths

The stock cable is a mess too. It's thick, heavy, and the nylon techflex rubs again itself for horrible microphonics.

DCA does sell the connectors at reasonable prices so you can make your own cables. They're Chinese knock-offs, but they seem well made and are less than half the price of the name brand. These Hirose style connectors are a PITA to work with though.

First of all you need to buy an extra female jack to mate with the male end and unscrew its center from the outer shell. Second, screwing it back in will rip out your soldered connections if you aren't extra careful. Third, to hold the cable in place after reassembly, the connector comes with a brass clamp which seem to require a custom crimping tool and a pitifully short set screw that's supposed to press against the brass clamp and keep it from twisting. This will basically only work with a cable of exactly the right size. I ended up filling it with epoxy instead...

Not exactly the most on topic, but I needed to rant about my first time working with Hirose connectors after spending 3 hours reterminating the headphone end of an HD650 cable for use with my Aeon 2 closed last Saturday.

On the plus side they are awesome once you have the damn things finished. They seem a lot more durable and mechanically stronger than 2.5/3.5 mm jacks or the other weird proprietary connectors that some companies like to use and much easier to connect and disconnect than mini XLRs which match them on that front.

If the Aeon 2 cable is the same as the Ether CX, yes, its without a doubt the worst cable I have in my collection and the connectors are only slightly better than the original Hifiman screw on affair (how are you expected to tighten a nut properly when you cant grip at least two planes of it?). In summer in just Tshirts the microphonics are bearable but with any kind of overgarment with zips etc (or collars) , that cable is woeful. I can only imagine Dan and co at DCA do their testing in the buff.

 

[maverickronin]

I can only imagine Dan and co at DCA do their testing in the buff.

I've talked with him at AXPONA and Dan really does know his stuff so I'm pretty sure those cables are just a marketing concession to people who think cables improve sound quality. They're thick and stiff, so they must be better!

Still disappointing though. Would be nice if he at least used some softer paracord style sleeving instead.

 

[Jimbob54]

I've talked with him at AXPONA and Dan really does know his stuff so I'm pretty sure those cables are just a marketing concession to people who think cables improve sound quality. They're thick and stiff, so they must be better!

Still disappointing though. Would be nice if he at least used some softer paracord style sleeving instead.

Oh, I am sure he does, they are great cans. Im only recently discovering how good .

My version of the cable debacle gives the better hi-fi urban myth though ;-)

 

[KeithPhantom]

Wasnt aware the HD6 family ever got much criticism or myths

Lately, yes. Since there have been somewhat new developments since 2010 and forwards, the HD 6X0 line has been quoted as slow, not very resolving, and a plain simple "mid-fi" solution. I still think that family is pretty great compared to other dynamic drivers of nowadays and for the price they are selling them right now, they are an absolute steal. Upgrading will get you somewhat better measurements (mostly distortion and subbass extension), but it isn't a huge difference. Sometimes the tone you find some people referring to this line of headphones can convey that they are "low-fidelity", exaggerating their weaknesses, as an example, there is the comment that these are "muddy" and "bloated"; this can be explained by looking at their frequency response where you can see a 2-4 dB hump between 100 and 300 Hz. This can be easily removed by EQ if you really don't like it

Another "issue" they have is that they lack subbass (considered from 10 to 25 Hz). This is true, but we have to put this in context. Even the bassiest music will not have a lot if any musical content below 20 Hz (heck, even some cheap ADCs have a limit of 20 Hz), so it shouldn't be a problem unless you want a subwoofer on your head, something these headphones aren't. Also, they are only 5 dB down from ruler-flat bass at 25 Hz (and this is the same bass extension my LCD-2 Fazor have), and only roll-off to -10 dB at 10 Hz. At 50 Hz they are completely neutral in the bass region and they stay neutral the whole frequency range up to 20 kHz. That is something I have yet to find in ANY headphone (no piercing schlongs, no Mariana deep dips, no spiky behaviors, none of that) (excluding the HD650 hump that can be EQ'd away). The only reason I don't say they are the best is because of the rather high distortion compared to newer drivers, but their FR is enviable IMO.

This is the reason I still use them, even though I have both the HD 800 and the LCD-2 Fazor, because my HD 6XX can do so many things right and only getting a few slightly wrong. I wanted to sell them at a time, but now if I had to sell my headphones, I would stay with the HD 6XX for the reasons I already explained. I appreciate that headphones this old could get sound so right, that improvements are no more in every aspect, they are more compartmentalized in an area or a few areas. I still am waiting for a better headphone that can improve the few things the HD 6XX do wrong while keeping everything it does right. Maybe you have a different opinion, but this is what I found after reading countless measurements and trying multiple pairs from cheap to top of the line flagships.