What's the best passive (and preferably floorstanding) speaker one can find for $2,500 or less?

[Sal1950]

The relative is currently eyeing a lightly used pair of Revel Performa F206s on Audiogon.

If the price is good, grab them up and don't look back.

 

[6speed]

I haven't heard of Philharmonic Audio before. The specs are impressive. I wish there were distortion/frequency graphs though as that's where the ribbons tend to struggle. Adding the BMR mid range driver is a really intriguing solution.

I suspect Dennis crosses the Raal higher than he does with other tweeters in order to avoid all that low end distortion, and uses the BMR as a filler driver (with a narrow passband) to bridge the gap between the midbass and the tweeter. That is also the OEM Raal which is roughly half the size of the retail one most people buy.

Good domes:
https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/bliesma/bliesma-t34a-4
https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/satori/satori-tw29r
https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/scan-speak/scanspeak-d3004660000
or on a budget
https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/seas/seas-27tdfc-h1189
The two useful tweeter measurements consistently presented on that site are on axis and HD frequency response @315mm.

 

[Roen]

I suspect Dennis crosses the Raal higher than he does with other tweeters in order to avoid all that low end distortion, and uses the BMR as a filler driver (with a narrow passband) to bridge the gap between the midbass and the tweeter. That is also the OEM Raal which is roughly half the size of the retail one most people buy.

Good domes:
https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/bliesma/bliesma-t34a-4
https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/satori/satori-tw29r
https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/scan-speak/scanspeak-d3004660000
or on a budget
https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/seas/seas-27tdfc-h1189
The two useful tweeter measurements consistently presented on that site are on axis and HD frequency response @315mm.

Thanks!

 

[Roen]

That Satori looks real nice!

 

[LightninBoy]

Could you show me documentation on ribbons struggling with distortion / frequency? I've never heard of this issue before and am keenly interested to learn more about ribbons.

Other's beat me to this. You can also peruse the SoundStage measurement links to see this phenomenon and compare similarly priced ribbon to dome speakers. Here's one example.

Golden Ears Triton 1 (ribbon) ...


Versus the Revel F206 (Dome) ...


That distortion bump at 1k - 3.5k on the top graph is one of the better results for a ribbon. As others noted, speaker designers compensate by crossing over the ribbons higher, but that just means more high end frequency duties fall to the mid-range driver. But mid-range drivers tend to beam those higher frequencies, so dispersion suffers.

I chose these speakers because I think they each represent great performance for their respective tweeter type. There are many dome tweeter speakers that have worse distortion graphs than the Tritan. But with the Revel you see what can be achieved with a SOTA dome tweeter design. (BTW - if you want to see a really, really bad ribbon design, check out the Monitor Audio Gold GX50. Ugh).

This is why I find that Philharmonic BMR speaker so intriguing. That could allow him to crossover the ribbon at a high frequency thus avoiding the distortion, yet still get good dispersion from that BMR. Fascinating stuff.

 

[LightninBoy]

Selah makes a similar speaker (uses a more expensive Accuton ceramic midrange and different woofer), they have measurements including harmonic distortion. Salk (who Dennis at Philharmonic worked for and designed many models) also has a similar speaker, that uses an even more expensive RAAL, more expensive Accuton model and a more expensive woofer (plus you get the amazing cabinet finishes).

Great info. Thanks!

 

[Roen]

Other's beat me to this. You can also peruse the SoundStage measurement links to see this phenomenon and compare similarly priced ribbon to dome speakers. Here's one example.

Golden Ears Triton 1 (ribbon) ...
View attachment 20468

Versus the Revel F206 (Dome) ...

View attachment 20469
That distortion bump at 1k - 3.5k on the top graph is one of the better results for a ribbon. As others noted, speaker designers compensate by crossing over the ribbons higher, but that just means more high end frequency duties fall to the mid-range driver. But mid-range drivers tend to beam those higher frequencies, so dispersion suffers.

I chose these speakers because I think they each represent great performance for their respective tweeter type. There are many dome tweeter speakers that have worse distortion graphs than the Tritan. But with the Revel you see what can be achieved with a SOTA dome tweeter design. (BTW - if you want to see a really, really bad ribbon design, check out the Monitor Audio Gold GX50. Ugh).

This is why I find that Philharmonic BMR speaker so intriguing. That could allow him to crossover the ribbon at a high frequency thus avoiding the distortion, yet still get good dispersion from that BMR. Fascinating stuff.

Do you happen to know which domes come close to the ribbon's low energy storage?

 

[Blumlein 88]

Do you happen to know which domes come close to the ribbon's low energy storage?

Do ribbons have lower energy storage?

 

[Roen]

Do ribbons have lower energy storage?

I imagine energy storage is a function of mass, and that's one area where ribbons have domes beat.

 

[6speed]

Energy storage is a function of mass when it's a lightweight membrane like a ribbon, planar, or electrostat. For dome mids that have more mass, I assume it's a function of motion damping provided by the surround and the inherent storage/damping of the membrane itself. SL had his own shaped toneburst method of investigating linear distortion (energy storage), but almost no one goes through the trouble of doing that. The only convenient test is a waterfall graph or cumulative spectral decay (CSD), which some measurement apps can generate. You want to see a fast and linear decay at all frequencies 1k-10k. The faster it disappears into the floor (at ~-24dB), the less energy storage. Any humps drawn out in time are resonances, and keep in mind these are not normalized, so for a tweeter showing a drooping on axis response in a CSD might have hidden resonances if EQed to flat.

First up is Accuton's new Cell tweeter:

Compare that to an SB Acoustics TW29RN-B:

Note how fast the Accuton begins its decay, but it stumbles after the first 12 dB and the SB catches up by -24dB at 0.6ms. The Accuton also has lingering resonances at 2-5kHz, but none of the typical dome tweeter energy storage below 2kHz.

Now look at the Viawave ribbon:

The energy drops like a stone in the first 3 ms, but performance suffers at lower frequencies.

Troels supplies a lot of CSD's if you go looking for them. Here is a Bliesma dome, which may be the best measuring tweeter on the market in every respect:

 

[MZKM]

Other's beat me to this. You can also peruse the SoundStage measurement links to see this phenomenon and compare similarly priced ribbon to dome speakers. Here's one example.

Golden Ears Triton 1 (ribbon) ...
View attachment 20468

Versus the Revel F206 (Dome) ...

View attachment 20469
That distortion bump at 1k - 3.5k on the top graph is one of the better results for a ribbon. As others noted, speaker designers compensate by crossing over the ribbons higher, but that just means more high end frequency duties fall to the mid-range driver. But mid-range drivers tend to beam those higher frequencies, so dispersion suffers.

I chose these speakers because I think they each represent great performance for their respective tweeter type. There are many dome tweeter speakers that have worse distortion graphs than the Tritan. But with the Revel you see what can be achieved with a SOTA dome tweeter design. (BTW - if you want to see a really, really bad ribbon design, check out the Monitor Audio Gold GX50. Ugh).

This is why I find that Philharmonic BMR speaker so intriguing. That could allow him to crossover the ribbon at a high frequency thus avoiding the distortion, yet still get good dispersion from that BMR. Fascinating stuff.

That’s an AMT, not a ribbon, similar but different tech (and usually cheaper).

 

[Eric Auer]

For $3k I'd go to NYC...https://ohmspeaker.com/speakers/

Eric

 

[Roen]

That’s an AMT, not a ribbon, similar but different tech (and usually cheaper).

Yeah, I'm surprised I missed that. They're also generally heavier than a ribbon, which kills one of ribbons' biggest advantages.

 

[Roen]

Energy storage is a function of mass when it's a lightweight membrane like a ribbon, planar, or electrostat. For dome mids that have more mass, I assume it's a function of motion damping provided by the surround and the inherent storage/damping of the membrane itself. SL had his own shaped toneburst method of investigating linear distortion (energy storage), but almost no one goes through the trouble of doing that. The only convenient test is a waterfall graph or cumulative spectral decay (CSD), which some measurement apps can generate. You want to see a fast and linear decay at all frequencies 1k-10k. The faster it disappears into the floor (at ~-24dB), the less energy storage. Any humps drawn out in time are resonances, and keep in mind these are not normalized, so for a tweeter showing a drooping on axis response in a CSD might have hidden resonances if EQed to flat.

First up is Accuton's new Cell tweeter:

Compare that to an SB Acoustics TW29RN-B:

Note how fast the Accuton begins its decay, but it stumbles after the first 12 dB and the SB catches up by -24dB at 0.6ms. The Accuton also has lingering resonances at 2-5kHz, but none of the typical dome tweeter energy storage below 2kHz.

Now look at the Viawave ribbon:

The energy drops like a stone in the first 3 ms, but performance suffers at lower frequencies.

Troels supplies a lot of CSD's if you go looking for them. Here is a Bliesma dome, which may be the best measuring tweeter on the market in every respect:

How much for the Bliesma? Lol

 

[Blumlein 88]

That’s an AMT, not a ribbon, similar but different tech (and usually cheaper).

The Old Colony Speaker builder mag had articles for making your own AMTs. Interesting and good results, but never quite the ticket.

 

[direstraitsfan98]

What about speakers $25k+? Any suggestions?

 

[Blumlein 88]

What about speakers $25k+? Any suggestions?

The Revel Ultima Salons are in the ballpark. I'd look at Magico too. I'm sure there are others.

 

[6speed]

+1 on Magico

...although my semi-DIY suggestion is

1. Buy old Watt Puppies for the cabinet materials tech
2. Replace the drivers with Scanspeak woofers, Satori mids and Bliesma tweeters
3. Junk the crossovers and go fully active

 

[MZKM]

What about speakers $25k+? Any suggestions?

No upper limit, that’ll be fun:

* KEF Blade (or Muon if you are a billionaire).

* All Vivid Audio Giya models in your budget; despite its boutique looks, it’s actually very good.

* All Magico models in your budget.

* All YG Acoustic models in your budget (can’t attest to their lower end, but their high end is excellent).

* Custon speaker by Salk Sound. Design the best speaker possible with drivers available to the public.

* The mentioned Salon2 is excellent, but underbudget.

 

[MZKM]

+1 on Magico

...although my semi-DIY suggestion is

1. Buy old Watt Puppies for the cabinet materials tech
2. Replace the drivers with Scanspeak woofers, Satori mids and Bliesma tweeters
3. Junk the crossovers and go fully active

Not sure if you are aware, but there is a DIY speaker plan company (meaning the guy makes his own and sells the instructiona and crossover schematics)

+1 on Magico

...although my semi-DIY suggestion is

1. Buy old Watt Puppies for the cabinet materials tech
2. Replace the drivers with Scanspeak woofers, Satori mids and Bliesma tweeters
3. Junk the crossovers and go fully active

Go full DIY

This site sells DIY plans (dimensions for each piece of the cabinet, crossover schematics, instructions, etc.) and some of his models are made to look like Wilson speakers.

Here is one Reddit user’s finished Illuminator-5 model (named for using Scan-Speak’s Illuminator drivers),