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What's the best passive (and preferably floorstanding) speaker one can find for $2,500 or less?

Blumlein 88

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There is a Devialet SAM profile for the LS50 you have probably tried.
The LS50s are absolutely stunning IME though mine are not in use just now I had them in my study and the ProAc EBS are connected in there now.
They do need lots of power and my guess is that those who find fault have an inadequate amp.
I've found the same thing. They need more power than some people realize. They sound much better with a beefy amp behind them.
 

Ron Texas

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Yes, they measure better than anything made by, e.g., B&W, and the sound of the LS50s is very subjectively pleasing. I look forward to EQing the shit out of mine and leashing up some subs to them.
I have a sub and it made a big difference. The only EQ I am using right now is for the sub and that does make a difference. I identified a peak at 160 hz, but when I EQ'ed it, I could not hear a difference. That might get revisited.
 

Dialectic

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There is a Devialet SAM profile for the LS50 you have probably tried.
The LS50s are absolutely stunning IME though mine are not in use just now I had them in my study and the ProAc EBS are connected in there now.
They do need lots of power and my guess is that those who find fault have an inadequate amp.
Yes, my London system was Devialet 120 plus LS50s with SAM. Sounded wonderful in most respects but quickly ran out of dynamic range in the low bass.
 

Ron Texas

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I've found the same thing. They need more power than some people realize. They sound much better with a beefy amp behind them.
No kidding. Not quite as much power is needed if a sub is in use.

Of course we can throw everything out and replace it with vastly superior powered speakers with all kinds of DSP tricks, LOL.
 

andreasmaaan

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More flat and with only first order filters!
Can you please stop spreading this misinformation here. They are not first order filters, as is obvious looking at the graph you posted of the speaker's phase response.

I'm sure they sound much better than they would if they actually did use first order filters, of course.
 

Frank Dernie

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Yes, my London system was Devialet 120 plus LS50s with SAM. Sounded wonderful in most respects but quickly ran out of dynamic range in the low bass.
Indeed, it is mainly the lack of dynamic range that keeps them from being used in a bigger room here, and of course SAM doesn’t allow damage to the speaker so it can only compensate the bass accurately at low SPLs on something so small
The nerd in me enjoyed looking at the SAM corrections on the Devialet site, both max displacement and bass roll off. I noted both the Estelon and YG acoustics speakers were already pretty well spot on and needed no correction for anything but extension, maybe there are others too many to look at all of them...
 

Dialectic

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Indeed, it is mainly the lack of dynamic range that keeps them from being used in a bigger room here, and of course SAM doesn’t allow damage to the speaker so it can only compensate the bass accurately at low SPLs on something so small
The nerd in me enjoyed looking at the SAM corrections on the Devialet site, both max displacement and bass roll off. I noted both the Estelon and YG acoustics speakers were already pretty well spot on and needed no correction for anything but extension, maybe there are others too many to look at all of them...
I also nerded out on the SAM site and was fascinated by how the smaller Wilson speakers seem to have more low-end extension than the bigger ones. Separately, I thought about picking up some passive Mangers in Singapore on the basis of their ridiculous extension with SAM (12 Hz if I recall correctly) but thought better of it.
 

Frank Dernie

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I also nerded out on the SAM site and was fascinated by how the smaller Wilson speakers seem to have more low-end extension than the bigger ones. Separately, I thought about picking up some passive Mangers in Singapore on the basis of their ridiculous extension with SAM (12 Hz if I recall correctly) but thought better of it.
The measurements show why I found the bass of the Harbeth Monitor 40s a bit much!
 

Dialectic

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As a matter of fact, while I was in the Adelphi Mall looking at the Manger loudspeakers, Devialet staff from France were in the building to measure loudspeakers for SAM. I was told they'd measured various Audio Note and Raidho models that day.
 

Erik

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What is perplexing for me is a surprising lack of evidence used to substantiate the defense of the LS50 - especially on ASR of all places - and that people whose listening experience have been enhanced by relying on some very sophisticated audio engineering ironically cast aspersions upon using the same parameters their equipment excel in to evaluate cheaper equipment.
Yes, this is disgusting.

Since the the discussion started from my post, I would like to share my thoughts about it. First of all, I have not said that LS50 are bad. Actually I said that they are nice loudspeakers but there are products with better characteristics for about the same price. And I provided objective data that shows it. I don't even understand what are you trying to argue with here, I just see a bunch of triggered LS50 owners rationalizing their choices. Especially Ron Texas has a really severe case of buyers Stockholm syndrome, getting so angry beacuse someone dared to call his speakers just "nice" but not "the best". Reading his and others low quality arguments feels like I'm on a very different forum, not on ASR.
 
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Roen

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I can chime in as well. I auditioned the LS50 as a contender for speakers in its price bracket, but went the RAAL / SEAS route instead. LS50 is good, but wasn't amazing to me, subjectively.
 

Dialectic

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Yes, this is disgusting.

Since the the discussion started from my post, I would like to share my thoughts about it. First of all, I have not said that LS50 are bad. Actually I said that they are nice loudspeakers but there are products with better characteristics for about the same price. And I provided objective data that shows it. I don't even understand what are you trying to argue with here, I just see a bunch of triggered LS50 owners rationalizing their choices. Especially Ron Texas has a really severe case of buyers Stockholm syndrome, being so angry that someone dared to call his speakers just "nice" but not "the best". Reading his and others low quality arguments feels like I'm on a very different forum, not on ASR.
What's bizarre is the exaggeration about how badly they measure. They don't measure that badly, and I was puzzled by some of the posts referring to these purportedly terrible measurements. The LS50s are more accurate than most audiophile monitor-size speakers. That's all anyone has said.

The other strange thing is that the "evidence-based" fellow is pulling measurements from the 3D3A lab to support his conclusion that the LS50 is flawed from a conventional speaker engineering perspective. Yet, if you were to talk to anyone from the 3D3A lab, you're find that they find Sanders loudspeakers to be the best for their purposes. Sanders loudspeakers are atrocious when viewed from the conventional speaker engineering perspective that the evidenced-based guy prefers.

I never said the LS50s were that great. I use them for TV sound. Are we supposed to think that LSR305s or Kali Audio speakers are better in all respects than LS50s with a Devialet? I'd wager otherwise.
 

Ilkless

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It is curious behaviour, sure. I don't think it looks terrible compared to many speakers in that price range (or any price range), but it's not ideal.

Nevertheless, as per my original point, it's actually the opposite kind of directivity mismatch to that which would be described as "classic".
I think we agree that this is a compromised design. The disagreement lies in how we take different definitions of directivity mismatch. My focus in characterising directivity mismatch lies in the outcome: off-axis flaring/peaking resulting in response anomalies that substantially deviate from the listening window, regardless of whether it is caused by the crossover or lack of pattern control at an individual driver level. In this case the data suggests it to be both. Perhaps I could have been clearer with my use of the word "classic" - I was referring to the peak-dip response trend (ie. outcome rather than root cause) that increases in severity off-axis.
 

Ron Texas

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Yes, this is disgusting.

Since the the discussion started from my post, I would like to share my thoughts about it. First of all, I have not said that LS50 are bad. Actually I said that they are nice loudspeakers but there are products with better characteristics for about the same price. And I provided objective data that shows it. I don't even understand what are you trying to argue with here, I just see a bunch of triggered LS50 owners rationalizing their choices. Especially Ron Texas has a really severe case of buyers Stockholm syndrome, getting so angry beacuse someone dared to call his speakers just "nice" but not "the best". Reading his and others low quality arguments feels like I'm on a very different forum, not on ASR.
Sounds like a personal attack to me. You are trying to make a molehill into a mountain. If anyone here is triggered (another insult), you are. Low quality arguments, another insult. On some other forum, that's a big assumption from someone with 19 posts. Actually, I don't care if my speakers are nice or the best or whatever. If anything, I see the owner of something else, or some idea, feeling insufficient because the LS50 received so many accolades. You said that people who like the LS50 are out of reality and implied it's success was marketing and not substance. Nobody said they were perfect. Please return to your planet and stop being a total annoyance.
 
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Ron Texas

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I think we agree that this is a compromised design. The disagreement lies in how we take different definitions of directivity mismatch. My focus in characterising directivity mismatch lies in the outcome: off-axis flaring/peaking resulting in response anomalies that substantially deviate from the listening window, regardless of whether it is caused by the crossover or lack of pattern control at an individual driver level. In this case the data suggests it to be both. Perhaps I could have been clearer with my use of the word "classic" - I was referring to the peak-dip response trend (ie. outcome rather than root cause) that increases in severity off-axis.
You are clear as mud. Haters will hate. You have your favorites and are aggravated that the LS50 has received so much attention. Tough. I don't have buyer's remorse. You are making a big deal out of nothing which I don't like. If you look around you might find my negative reaction to claims that the D&D 8c and Kii 3 have made everything obsolete. Speakers are not like electronics.

As Jeremy Clarkson says, there are two opinions, mine and the wrong one.

You are reminding me of why I have cut back on internet forum participation. People get rude because they don't have to face those whose toes they are stepping on. The Technics speaker which What Hi-Fi dissed was not a success, the LS50 is. Perhaps you should be asking yourself why instead of dismissing the result to marketing. Your analysis is wrong.
 
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Dialectic

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Can we close the thread? My relative got his speakers, and he likes 'em.
 

Dialectic

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Revel F206, lightly used, for $2K. Perfect for him.
 

andreasmaaan

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I think we agree that this is a compromised design. The disagreement lies in how we take different definitions of directivity mismatch. My focus in characterising directivity mismatch lies in the outcome: off-axis flaring/peaking resulting in response anomalies that substantially deviate from the listening window, regardless of whether it is caused by the crossover or lack of pattern control at an individual driver level. In this case the data suggests it to be both. Perhaps I could have been clearer with my use of the word "classic" - I was referring to the peak-dip response trend (ie. outcome rather than root cause) that increases in severity off-axis.
Yes, we basically agree in that case.

FWIW, I'd say the Technics speakers being discussed here have a more classic directivity mismatch; you can see the directivity widen just where the tweeter crosses over at around 2.5KHz:

1549095667229.png
 
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