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What would you donate for us to test speakers?

Wombat

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'Hundreds of budget speakers'>

Say, average of $150 pr: That is lots of money unless they are donated.

How much has this idea been thought through? I am but an Engineer(policy, practice, project management and general management) but this all seems to be a thought-bubble to me. At least at this point.

Phono preamp testing has stalled. Peanuts compared to speakers.

Ambition needs to be tempered by practicality. Hasten slowly. :)

Edit: As of post #104 in this thread ~$2100 has been pledged by 15 members.
 

Juhazi

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Amir, have you directly contacted W. Klippel? You might be able to persuade him and the company to lease this system and to give support. I believe they would like this kind of publicity and ASR's independence wouldn't be questioned.
 

Rja4000

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amirm said:
The biggest issue is that while the above can be done on the cheap, it doesn't appeal to me. It is a manual process, taking so much of my time.

The automated system can produce the data we need by just placing the speaker, setting a couple of positional information and pressing go. We get authoritative, repeatable data that we can do something with. And not have it be a major chore just to test one speaker.

I fully understand and respect that.

But, again,
1. high level filtering could probably be done without using the full resolution method
2. In that optic, even if I fully agree YOU should go for the full tool, others may go for 'cheaper', less discriminant tools.

If you don't need high positioning accuracy, I dont see how automating an one meter-long arm for light load (a DPA 4061 weights 7.5g incl. Cable and connector) could lead to such cost, as far as you also don't need heavy duty use and if you can afford some tuning/downtime effort.
That's probably enough to filter-out, in a serious, documented and reproductible way (including the limitations), the worst of the lot.

Same applies for DAC measurement: I'm pretty sure you can confidently filter-out anything worse than 100dB SINAD with proper testing method using a RME or anything equivalent.
By the way, that's what RME say they do for their QA process. And, for what we can see from the results and feedbacks, QA looks like good enough...
 
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Rja4000

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@amirm
You're right on most things, as usual
And you have a measurement: the number of hits on this forum
A few comments though:

1. You didn't only start a trend for serious measurements being published by manufacturers or reviewers (by the way, I see Audiofanzine.fr, one of the most read musicians tech website, now testing sound interfaces with an AP analyzer. They claim 623709 active members!)
You also made us understanding those measurements, and wanting to perform our own.
In my opinion, that's important to use and encourage this, because that will help to grow and create a stable base of contributors (and, potential, money providers). Ok, I speak for myself, but reading this forum I'm sure I'm not alone.
Making clear the methodology and improving some basic measurement tests, with contribution from other renowned experts, is of highest interest.
(This speaker test method being in line with that quest)

2. The typical interest is most probably not in low end speakers. The benefit of identifying cheaper good electronics is mainly to be able to spend more on critical parts like the speakers or headphones.
So, speakers in 300-5000€ (or $) range are probably the most valuable here.
(Not to speak about the difference between passive and active: at some performance level, passive speakers probably don't make sense anymore.)

3. The main limitation I feel here is the quantity.
How many tests you are able to publish a year ?
That's how other website can grow on your tracks: do faster and more.
Typical reader will not look too much into the measurement accuracy or method as long as figures or method look the same (you're the reference).
I think you should also favor the same way, to grow on quantity while keeping control on the quality.
And keep the readers and contributors here.


Bottom line: I'll contribute at least $50. One shot for this project and on occasion later on.
Edit: I sent 50$.
 
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March Audio

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How did $100 become the norm for what I plan to test? I said budget to mid-range. I plan to test speakers up to low thousands of dollars.

Just like electronic testing, I plan to also occasionally test much more expensive speakers. I have my Revel Salon 2 for example ($25,000 a pair). Have JBL M2s at work. And access to what local members have who may be interested in driving them back and forth for me to test. So there will be testing of more expensive products. I just don't want to set that as a goal and deal with how we are going to get large number of them shipped back and forth.

But yes, all of these are barriers. So what? Do we shy away and sit in a corner and decide we can't solve this collectively? Wouldn't our audiophile life be better if we had 10 speakers at different capabilities that we would recommend to friends, families and strangers online? And have the data to back it?

We all know that if all of us contributed, we would have the money yesterday. That we don't means we may not have thought through what we can do to impact this industry broadly, and serve our community at the same time.

There is this unwritten rule that what we are doing is not possible. That without direct profit model, and collaboration with companies to get freebies, we can't exist. So far we have proven them wrong with electronics. Very wrong. Do we want to leave out speaker and headphone testing and leave this equation half solved?

Speaker testing.

In the words of Jean Luc Picard

"MAKE IT SO NUMBER ONE"

 

Thomas savage

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@amirm , how mobile is this test rig? Could you do home visits?

My main concerns are ,

A: it all relies on you, a fundamentally flawed situation imo.

B: transportation of speakers will be a nightmare, just thinking of my own speakers and a little bit I know about companies shipping speakers here and there. Horror stories a plenty.

Having said that a nice long list of sub $2,000 bookshelves that are relatively easy to transport would be great and Pro audio speakers tend to be built for transport so that would work out.

It seems to me testing should really be funded by the industry. Indirectly of course but the industry should fund independent testing of all audio products. You started this forum to tackle a problem or at least that's one reason why you started the forum but I think as we go on we are stumbling into different territory. Could we not campaign for an industry funded and supported laboratory for testing audio products.

That laboratory could have a forum supported by industry experts and populated by knowledgeable and respected folks, we could be that forum.

It would be great if you could get together some of the industry folks like maybe John Atkinson and set something up. A lasting legacy that would go on way beyond any of us.
 
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amirm

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Amir, have you directly contacted W. Klippel? You might be able to persuade him and the company to lease this system and to give support. I believe they would like this kind of publicity and ASR's independence wouldn't be questioned.
Yes, I contacted them before even discussing the topic on the forum a few weeks back. Their US distributor is very helpful and supportive and is willing to make a case to parent company. In the best case scenario though as far as discount, we still need to come up with good bit of money ourselves.

As to leasing, one winds up paying as much as the purchase price in a year or two so it doesn't make sense. I can personally arrange such a loan to this effort to simulate the same.
 
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amirm

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@amirm , how mobile is this test rig? Could you do home visits?
Not portable at all unfortunately. This brief video shows its construction and operation:


It is not a big limitation with respect to speakers locally as we bring the speaker to my place rather than the other way around.
 

Thomas savage

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Not portable at all unfortunately. This brief video shows its construction and operation:


It is not a big limitation with respect to speakers locally as we bring the speaker to my place rather than the other way around.
Ok , I'm taking bets on how many bits amir has left over when he ( thinks) he's built it.

Also we better hope the AP folks don't talk to the Klippel folks else they won't let you have one ha ha ..

Tech support guy " it's that amir guy from the internet again, reckons the user interface ain't friendly enough .., what do I tell him ? "

Boss " What does he know about interfaces ?"

" He says he used to work at Microsoft...."

Boss Laughs , takes the receiver from the tech guy and puts the phone down....
 
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amirm

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It seems to me testing should really be funded by the industry.
This may happen in the future. But right now, with no consumer awareness of such measurements, these companies don't feel the need to go through this expense. We would need to educate the marketplace on usefulness and value of measurements as we have done with electronics and have it work its way back.

My hope is that we do get a lot of companies who would want to have their speakers measured this way. They could either pay to get them done privately or cover the expenses of one tested as part of a review.

Right now people who want to have their stuff tested actually go to Klippel lab and get it done. See this kickstarter for example: https://www.kickstarter.com/project...timate-360-hi-res-smart-speaker/posts/2136152

2d2c7228b498b834f588a181c2a07f08_original.jpg


There is a nice video there with the thing operating. And the outputs of the system.
 
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amirm

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Ok , I'm taking bets on how many bits amir has left over when he ( thinks) he's built it.
:)

Yeh when I put together my CNC machine, it was a nightmare. I had to disassemble it multiple times because the parts were mirror image, etc. And then dropped the whole gantry, and breaking the linear guides. Fortunately being a german company, Klippel has a much better manual for assembly than what I was going by on the CNC machine.

Still, parts will be remaining when done. That is certain! :)
 

Blumlein 88

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Not portable at all unfortunately. This brief video shows its construction and operation:


It is not a big limitation with respect to speakers locally as we bring the speaker to my place rather than the other way around.
Oh I think you need to adapt it to an improved, and enlarged camper van (with concrete floor). Then you can tour the country testing speakers. Move the speaker to the portable Klipple super van, and test. Move the speaker back into the owner's home. Drive to the next location.
 
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amirm

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If you don't need high positioning accuracy, I dont see how automating an one meter-long arm for light load (a DPA 4061 weights 7.5g incl. Cable and connector) could lead to such cost, as far as you also don't need heavy duty use and if you can afford some tuning/downtime effort.
I thought about building one. The problem is that on top of the fixture, there is some really hairy math involved to perform field separation. Two parallel scans are made with some distance between them and using holographic file separation math, they are able to get the direct sound without the reflected sound in the room. They also solve the wave equations so that nearfield measurements can be used to predict the far field performance. I could pay someone to do the signal processing but by the time we are done, I think we will have spent half or more of the expense anyway.
 
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amirm

amirm

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Oh I think you need to adapt it to an improved, and enlarged camper van (with concrete floor). Then you can tour the country testing speakers. Move the speaker to the portable Klipple super van, and test.
As it turns out, I was thinking about using the camper van for transportation as it has a long isle in the middle of the bunk beds:

ab5e17e29df4daa36cd745380d252a96.png


Worst case, we could put them on the beds but we are talking dangerous territory as far as damaging out floating vacation house. :)
 

Thomas savage

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Laxatives.

Hair restoration.

Estate planning.

Funeral insurance.
Ha ha
:)

Yeh when I put together my CNC machine, it was a nightmare. I had to disassemble it multiple times because the parts were mirror image, etc. And then dropped the whole gantry, and breaking the linear guides. Fortunately being a german company, Klippel has a much better manual for assembly than what I was going by on the CNC machine.

Still, parts will be remaining when done. That is certain! :)
You read the manual??! , Christ guys this is worse than I thought.

Hands up, any other man here read manuals ? ...

..

Show yourselves out.
 

Thomas savage

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As it turns out, I was thinking about using the camper van for transportation as it has a long isle in the middle of the bunk beds:

ab5e17e29df4daa36cd745380d252a96.png


Worst case, we could put them on the beds but we are talking dangerous territory as far as damaging out floating vacation house. :)
When we slept in the van you said those beds could not be separated....
 
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