What volume level do you use for classical music? Loud or quiet? What are your opinions regarding relaxation and volume?

[Robin L]

"By "classical" we can mean 18thC or 21st." That was inclusive not exclusive. For me, I'm referring to classical music as being music starting from the classical period, rather than the informal "not jazz not pop not rock" definition. The 19th/20thC classical/romantic orchestra was about as big as it gets, think Bruckner or Havergal Brian or Schoenberg or Mahler or Berlioz, so that's about as loud as the orchestra does get. Having set a version of the Seikilos theme, I am happy to agree that we can go back much further!

Have a lot of Mahler and Bruckner in my collection. Fortunately, do not have to crank it to "11" to enjoy it.

 

[Titurel]

Another more recent reference: https://www.actsafe.ca/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Noise-and-hearing-loss-in-musicians-Report-PDF.pdf

This again refers to average orchestral levels of 100dbA (C would be higher). Sorry for the scattered posts, I had to search out the references. And yes, 130dB any scale does seem unlikely!

While perusing your link, I recalled sitting in the auditorium during a Birgit Nisson concert rehearsal. During a break, the grand lady stumped off stage to an associate a few rows away from me. She asked if she could be heard. I almost laughed out loud. Whenever she sang, the full orchestra behind her on the stage all but disappeared. Now that's loud.

 

[EERecordist]

I would not go as loud as rock or pop on headphones. There is an iPhone NIOSH app that is an accurate sound SPL meter. (It was not done on Android because there is too much variation in Android hardware makers)

If you are an orchestra or big band musician, you will be exposed to higher loudness, also dominated by the layout of instruments on the stage. Drums and brass are very loud.

Seated out in the hall, the music is usually NIOSH-safe without amplification. Some halls will use some amplification, for instance to fill in the sound for under-balcony seats.

At home, on speakers. I may set background, medium, and critical listening volumes for orchestral/ acoustic instrument classical music. My living room ambient is about 30dBA, quieter at night. My main noise is my neighbor's air conditioning condenser.

For regular listening on speakers at the listening position: background low 30's to upper 50's on dynamics; regular listening low 50's to upper 60's dynamics; for critical listening , 50s to about 80.

I would use critical listening levels to listen to articulation in the string sections, woodwinds, piano or bells; the recording mixing, and mastering.

It is said that people listen louder on headphones, misjudging them against speakers in a room. Maybe some of our experts on ASR could tone in.

I have not had my hearing tested for some time, but I think it is fairly OK.

Android users can buy a used iphone or ipod touch and load the NIOSH app. With WiFi, there are other useful functions on the device. I routinely bring it to concerts. I was not happy to see a Sleater Kinney (rock band) mixed to 106dB peaks in a concert hall, that is when I put my earplugs in!

 

[garyrc]

I'm just getting into classical @ a late age and I'm a bit confused if it is better really loud or very quiet. I know many like it very subtle and others are head bangers. What is going on here for you peeps? How loud is it in concert usually and what should I expect from my headphone gear to make it like a real life concert?

I listen to nearly nothing but classical (except movie scores), and I used to play in several orchestras.

My guess: I don't think you can properly simulate a big symphony -- like most by Beethoven or Mahler safely and enjoyably with headphones. Very soft passages might be as soft as 70 db, and the largest instantaneous peaks are reputed to reach 115 dB; I've seen figures as high as 120 dB. Average levels might be around 80 or 85 dBs. With headphones, a sudden, huge peak may cause you to rip them off -- hopefully in time. With speakers, your fingers will find their way to your ears almost instantaneously. Of course, once you know the music and the recording, there should be no big surprises, just that gorgeous feeling of exhilaration!

See the chart below of the safe levels. Note the durations. Statements in the popular press that 80 dB will harm your hearing deserve the question, "80 dB for how long?" The answer should be "around 9 hours." Or, you can do what I do i.e., paraphrase John Stuart Mill by saying, "The mere enunciation of this last is sufficiently absurd as to render rebuttal superfluous."

My advice is, if you can afford it, get some speakers (and a good subwoofer) that are capable of great dynamics, and a suitable amplifier, so that the combination of the amp's power and the speakers' sensitivity ("efficiency") will allow prolonged levels of, say, 80 dB, and those 1/4 second long leading edges of big climaxes at 115 dB at your listening position, not merely at 1 Meter! With a big orchestra, say 100 or more players, these moments -- and the whole -- should increase cortical arousal in the brain, send chills through your body, and perhaps bring tears to your eyes.
MAXIMUM
NUMBER OF HOURS at VARIOUS LEVELS in dBC or dBZ

8 hours	90 dBC or dBZ
6	92
4	95
3	97
2	100
1 1/2	102
1	105
1/2	110
For 115 dB MAX! a duration of 1/4 hour or less (usually more like an 1/4 second peak) preferably with Z or C weighting.	115 Use "C" or "Z" weighting -- "A" ignores too much bass

 

[Petronius]

I don't do Relaxing, Headphones, or light beer.

 

[Sokel]

On a fun note and far from classical that's what the studio recommends for this work:

 

[Sjkrabbe]

I'm just getting into classical @ a late age and I'm a bit confused if it is better really loud or very quiet. I know many like it very subtle and others are head bangers. What is going on here for you peeps? How loud is it in concert usually and what should I expect from my headphone gear to make it like a real life concert? Is it normal to go really loud like I do for rock and pop music?

I would say that your peaks (with a full symphony orchestra) should be as loud as you just can bear without hurting your hearing - here I am only talking about Loudspeaker listening sessions - be very carefull if you want to do something similar on headphones!!!.
I have been in the classic music radio business for almost 35 years making a lot of live concert radio transmissions with our own symphony orchestra (Danish National Symphony Orchestra) and a lot of smaller chamber ensemble concerts.
And when I am mixing a typical concert broadcast, a lot - when we talk about volume level - depends on what kind of classical music we broadcasting, because the peaks in a small chamber orchestra, playing for instance baroque musik (more transparent), is at a lower level than the peaks of the big symphony orhestra playing the loudest Mahler, Skrjabin or Wagner (more dense) This gives - to my ears - the most realistic sense of being at a classical concert.
So - a sort of conclusion - different sorts of classical music demands different peak levels, if the aim is to be feeling good and at the same time beeing able to hear it all and feeling it is at the same confortable listening level.
Nowadays in the radio business we are working a lot with perceives loudness levels (LUFS - R128 standard)and it is the best that have happend in our business, for the listeners - and for us in the business, in sevaral decades

As a weekend treat for you all - here are a link to the photos I took last night in our concert hall at our weekly "Thursday Concert"

And if you want to listen to our broadcast from yesterday evening - while you are looking at the photos: https://www.dr.dk/lyd/p2/torsdagsko...agskoncerten-luisi-og-skrjabins-2-12422445434

And If you do NOT speak fluent Danish, here is a translantion of the facebook post (just tranlated by google translate):
Tonight's Thursday concert - @DRSymfoniorkestret under the direction of chief conductor Fabio Luisi plays music by Mozart and Scriabin tonight
In tonight's Thursday concert, before the break, there was Mozart's Eine Kleine Nachtmusik and two Mozart songs with the Russian-English mezzo-soprano Maria Schellenberg as soloist.
After the break, Scriabin's 2nd symphony is on the program.
The voices that guide you through the Thursday concert are Rie Koch and Esben Tange.
Photos here on Facebook were taken by Søren Krabbe
Listen in on P2 or listen to the concert at any time as a podcast in DR Lyd

https://www.facebook.com/drp2/posts/pfbid02CW4q2WjmY2ErR8ctT2g7Po57NfXD26mw3wwbaETKNyqh5vcRYZzsKrSZF4kjMhpTl

 

[MRC01]

... See the chart below of the safe levels. Note the durations. Statements in the popular press that 80 dB will harm your hearing deserve the question, "80 dB for how long?"The answer should be "around 9 hours." Or, you can do what I do i.e., paraphrase John Stuart Mill by saying, "The mere enunciation of this last is sufficiently absurd as to render rebuttal superfluous."

8 hours at 90 dB is the OSHA limit, which is not very safe. It allows some hearing loss with repeated exposure. The NIOSH levels are shorter and safer for the same loudness.
For more on this topic: https://www.soundtrace.com/blog/niosh-vs-osha-exposure-limits

 

[ElJaimito]

Peak level for the players on-stage or in pit can reach well over 110dbA, see various lawsuits! (https://healys.com/news-events-insi...ians-right-to-compensation-for-hearing-damage)

But for the audience at a distance 90 dBA is a typical peak level, with dynamic range of at least 32 dBA. This is too loud for home use. In my small studio my reference level is 83 dBA and this is loud enough to represent all music well. 32 dBA below that is 51 dBA and a quiet room is required to appreciate that. On headphones the dynamic range feels less for various reasons, IMO (with many conditionals - on magneplanars or electrostatics you get close to a concert hall feel, and cross feed also helps with that). The whole point of original high fidelity equipment was to be able to reproduce the concert hall at home. I choose the peak level as above to approximate to that.

I would recommend on speakers setting the loudest sections to as loud as you (and or SWMBO and/or family and/or neighbours) find comfortable (use a meter if you have one or can use a phone app, near enough for this: I'd set 83 dBA as a starting point, less may be preferred, much more may stretch most systems: note classical music is rarely bass heavy except for percussion section and organ).

To set the headphone levels is much trickier, try comparing the level in the cans with the room level you have set, they should sound as close as you can get. Then don't touch the volume controls for serious listening.

When using music as background none of this applies, but I would not use "classical" music as background. It requires full attention to get the full value.

Best.

I'm just getting into classical @ a late age and I'm a bit confused if it is better really loud or very quiet. I know many like it very subtle and others are head bangers. What is going on here for you peeps? How loud is it in concert usually and what should I expect from my headphone gear to make it like a real life concert? Is it normal to go really loud like I do for rock and pop music?

 

[MRC01]

Peak level for the players on-stage or in pit can reach well over 110dbA, see various lawsuits! (https://healys.com/news-events-insi...ians-right-to-compensation-for-hearing-damage)
...

True, which is why we have musicians' earplugs. They are custom fitted molds for deep insertion in the ear canal just short of the eardrum, with attenuating filters that can range from 25 dB (a lot) to 9 dB (a little) depending on the application. What's special about them is they have nearly flat frequency response, so they reduce overall levels without muffling the sound. And their venting and deep insertion minimizes occlusion, the amplification of sounds from your own body (such as chewing or swallowing).

A 110 dB peak for an instantaneous moment may be uncomfortable but generally won't cause damage. Yet practicing several hours a day even with an acoustic instrument like a flute or violin presents a greater risk.

 

[Petrushka]

I’m on the quiet side. When I used amps that had meters, I averaged a tenth of a watt. This is tricky with classical, as it has actual dynamic range.

 

[ElJaimito]

True, which is why we have musicians' earplugs. They are custom fitted molds for deep insertion in the ear canal just short of the eardrum, with attenuating filters that can range from 25 dB (a lot) to 9 dB (a little) depending on the application. What's special about them is they have nearly flat frequency response, so they reduce overall levels without muffling the sound. And their venting and deep insertion minimizes occlusion, the amplification of sounds from your own body (such as chewing or swallowing).

A 110 dB peak for an instantaneous moment may be uncomfortable but generally won't cause damage. Yet practicing several hours a day even with an acoustic instrument like a flute or violin presents a greater risk.

Yes, in the case quoted the poor guy got hit by a Wagner horn section at less than 1m - estimated 137 dBa

I lost 5 dB in the right ear for over a year back in the 80's on tour with major as back line, not artist, when fixing one of the subs when the imbecilic DJ ignored the notice on the console saying "at work" and blasted 3.5kW through the stack with me inside the cab...

 

[Joe Smith]

I'm mostly listening pretty quietly these days. Works well in my nearfield setup, where I do the bulk of my daily listening. Can go on headphones and I do occasionally, but mainly play at very soft volumes. The sunporch system gets played a bit louder, as it can project to both the main floor and the upper floor of the house, as it opens off the main stairwell. We mostly use my "main" system in the living room and the dining room system for background music during parties or game-playing in the dining room.

Part of that is my personal preference, part of it is my spouse's preference, and part of it due to being careful about my R ear tinnitus.

 

[AnalogSteph]

But for the audience at a distance 90 dBA is a typical peak level, with dynamic range of at least 32 dBA. This is too loud for home use.

One man's peak may be another man's maximum short-term average in this context, lest those staring at their digital peak meters be left scratching their heads. If I make it to the equivalent of anywhere between 90 and 100 dB SPL peak on headphones as a quieter-than-average listener before my hearing starts waving the white flag, I would think that average Joe would see higher levels. Amplifier power requirements for passive speakers are generally targetting around 103 dB SPL @ 1 m anechoic for good reason. NwAvGuy went with a 110 dB peak target for headphones / amplifier pairing, and he was retired even in 2011.

I would wager that those primarily armed with SPL meters tend to underestimate things like amplifier peak power requirements.

In my small studio my reference level is 83 dBA and this is loud enough to represent all music well.

What's that on the digital side, -18 dBFS (or LUFS)? That would leave you with peaks of 98 to 101 dB SPL, which sounds realistic.

Classical is the one genre I like listening to loud(-ish). I cannot take anything that is loud all the time, so will not be converting to a harsh noise fanatic or metalhead any time soon, but if it ebbs and flows with occasional peaks I don't mind. I guess my hearing has substantial inherent distortion.

 

[pablolie]

With classical IMO you kinda have to be familiar with the composition. I vehemently dispute that you have to listen at levels over 90dB to discern detail. Plus try that with quiet passages in several famous compositions and be ready to suddenly blow your speakers (or your marriage and home owners' association's goodwill :-D). But maybe I am privileged in the fact I live in a very quiet place. When I have checked I tend to listen to peaks under 89dB for longer relaxed listening session.

Two of my favorites are from Deutsche Grammophon's "Recomposed" series, namely Max Richter's take on Vivaldi and Peter Gregson's take on Bach. Phenomenal performances/recordings and they bring a refreshing angle to stuff you may have heard several hundred times before. It'll make you immerse in the music all over again, and the Baroque cadences will make you relax beautifully.

Oddly, one particular performance I enjoy listening to loudly is Karl Munchinger's very old rendition of Pachelbel's Canon (analog hiss be damned, I think it's on Decca), because it is the one that really takes my breath away and your inner biorhythm, breathing and perhaps heart rate totally melts with the performance if you abuse the sounds levels somewhat. And it's not only me, I have had friends suddenly start sobbing when I did that, because it is such a powerfully invasive experience if you kick things up loud and you can't escape it. Munchinger used a full orchestra, which is not epoch accurate, but good heavens it works.

I'll add the albums:

 

[ElJaimito]

What's that on the digital side, -18 dBFS (or LUFS)? That would leave you with peaks of 98 to 101 dB SPL, which sounds realistic.

Classical is the one genre I like listening to loud(-ish). I cannot take anything that is loud all the time, so will not be converting to a harsh noise fanatic or metalhead any time soon, but if it ebbs and flows with occasional peaks I don't mind. I guess my hearing has substantial inherent distortion.

Yes -18. And of course, ears get tired, faster when it's louder. But this is rarely a problem with "classical" (or jazz) material, listening to a couple of albums. Eminem, or Skrillex -- well that's another ting

 

[ElJaimito]

With classical IMO you kinda have to be familiar with the composition. I vehemently dispute that you have to listen at levels over 90dB to discern detail. Plus try that with quiet passages in several famous compositions and be ready to suddenly blow your speakers (or your marriage and home owners' association's goodwill :-D). But maybe I am privileged in the fact I live in a very quiet place. When I have checked I tend to listen to peaks under 89dB for longer relaxed listening session.

Yeah as median peak level 90 dBA works in a large hall but not in a small room, 78 to 83 dBA (add a few dB for C weighting) is my preference. The main complaints I get round here are from sheep and mastiff dogs - but I'm not sure they are listening to my system

 

[MickeyBoy]

I'm just getting into classical @ a late age and I'm a bit confused if it is better really loud or very quiet. I know many like it very subtle and others are head bangers. What is going on here for you peeps? How loud is it in concert usually and what should I expect from my headphone gear to make it like a real life concert? Is it normal to go really loud like I do for rock and pop music?

I think Gordon Holt was onto something when he wrote there was one best volume setting for each piece. It might vary for each of us, as implied by your question. And our room and equipment. I have noticed that we'll come Sacds and BDs sound louder and better than plain old stereo recordings.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Bob Katz's K-system for setting levels for mastering called for 83 db C with two speakers playing -20 db peak noise. I've found running around 6-9 db less for music listening of classical works pretty well at home.

 

[Scytales]

I wish to remind everybody that when stating peak sound levels, at least the duration of the time interval over which the level is measured should also be stated. Otherwise, there can be misunderstanding about the meaning of these levels between those who think of peak level as very short term (few miliseconds) measured with special dedicated hardware/software and others who think of peak levels as longer duration burst measured with regular sound pressure level, often with analog galvanometer display.