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What type of dispersion for modern 'European rooms' (concrete, brick, large windows)?

buz

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I am seriously looking at a new condo (prices where I live are in the stratosphere but it is what it is). More than likely this would be a large (50ish m2) open living room with one or two sides of bottom to ceiling windows and brick or concrete walls, concrete floors (usually with wood on top) and gypsum ceilings attached to more concrete.

Given that black friday is around the corner, I am wondering if I should pick up some KEF R3 or R7 or if I should try to go for wider speakers (mind you, Revel is hard to get in Europe and inexistent in Switzerland). I could also imagine reusing the 4 LS50 I have now for surround duties (or getting more R3s later on).

Subs probably won't work very well in a condo due to neighbors so that is not an immediate priority and makes me lean towards R7 more than R3...

Edit: Definitely will use room correction, but undecided if I want to bother more than the Audissey XT32 in Denon AVRs
 
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abdo123

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If your apartment is made out of bricks or concrete then I wouldn’t worry about a subwoofer at all (the accoustics would be hell though).

My advice would be to treat the ceiling, corners and the floor and get an Revel M16 and a subwoofer.

Most of the time the baren floor and ceiling are the biggest issue as the other walls usually have something covering them. And with a speaker that has perfect horizontal directivity like the M16 you shouldn’t treat the sidewalls anyway.

A step further would be indeed the R3 since the discounted price right now is really sexy, but for me an M16 and a subwoofer would trump an R3 with no subwoofer.
 
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buz

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I think WAF of subwoofer would be higher than of room treatment (not a big fan of the optics myself, TBH), so if it is not too bothersome for neighbors, R3+subwoofer(s possibly) would be ok, too (even if I prefer the looks of the R7).

FWIW, I had been contemplating actives, but 5.1 with genelec ones sure is pricey - especially after tthe recent 8351 price hike.
 

abdo123

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I think WAF of subwoofer would be higher than of room treatment (not a big fan of the optics myself, TBH), so if it is not too bothersome for neighbors, R3+subwoofer(s possibly) would be ok, too (even if I prefer the looks of the R7).

FWIW, I had been contemplating actives, but 5.1 with genelec ones sure is pricey - especially after tthe recent 8351 price hike.

Treatment doesn’t have to look ugly, but the pretty ones aren’t cheap. Your spouse for example would find at least one design off the GIK accoustics impression series beautiful.

An Genelec 8341A would optimal for a room with minimal treatment since it’s probably the most linear-ily behaving speaker in the world.

The speaker stands can be made of marble .etc

Anyway the first thing I would do after I would buy speakers is to talk to the neighbours about it and check how Loud it is from their place. I know it’s not the most Central European thing to do but it would be healthy for you on the long run.
 

abdo123

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the thing is past ~300 euros or so for speakers, every 1 euro you pay for treatment is 10 euros for speakers.

the difference between the 8341A and the R3 will be negligable, but when you ask 'what is THE best', then ofcourse the 8341A is the best.
 

fineMen

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Honestly, looking at https://gikacoustics.eu/product/impression-series-100mm-bass-trap-diffusor-absorber/ these won't get past ME. I think it would be easier to convince me to get 5.1 with 8341 and a 7360/70 instead of putting those in my living room... Mostly I was hoping to avoid Genelec One pricing by going for Kef R3 :)

Bass is another topic. Subs may help to avoid booming. Booming would by its very nature increase the volume at selective frequencies. That increase may lift the sound above the listening threshold of Your then neighbours. A flat response could stay below whilst being sufficently present for the intended listener.

Regarding the directivity, it seems to be a matter of chance. With wide the odds are higher to get undesirable reflections right at Your face. But that would be mitigated by more desirable reflections all around. With narrow the other way round. It depends on the geometry of the chosen set-up, me thinks.

Regardless of the camp people subscribe to, it looks like it was unrefined to just take some measurements. Reverberation times and things like that.

All in all, one reasonable proposal out of many to come was to just do the move and settle for a solution then after, with more concrete ;-) information available.
 

abdo123

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these won't get past ME.
that's a pity, my partner is a fan Art Deco so the great gatsby fountain scatter plater is 'his jam'.

I really thought out of all the options at least ONE would appeal to you. you can always ask a local carpenter to create your own custom scatter plates as well.
 

dshreter

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With a very reflective room, you will want to maximize your direct sound power. I would suggest you want narrow dispersion and to make an attempt at selectively treating first reflections. It might be realistic and unobtrusive to treat immediately behind the speakers. Out in the room can be harder from an appearance standpoint, but for sure a rug and absorbent furniture.

A wide speaker without treatment sitting far away, you will just be awash in reflected sound which will sound muddy and noisy.
 
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buz

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With a very reflective room, you will want to maximize your direct sound power. I would suggest you want narrow dispersion and to make an attempt at selectively treating first reflections. It might be realistic and unobtrusive to treat immediately behind the speakers.

That sounds quite reasonable. Corners are much harder, especially if one side is floor to ceiling windows. Rugs I could do (not a big fan because I spill things, but SO likes color), ceiling I am less in favor of given the cost to reverse...

@abdo123: The photo thing looks ok to me for walls but not really all that suitable for a ceiling :p. As for custom stuff, given Swiss prices, 10 EUR for the speakers might be the better deal...
 

pierre

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Focal Trio 6 or 11 are good if you want to minimise reflections. I have the same kind of modern European room: all concrete, wall to wall windows, etc
I tested genelec 8361 and Focal Trio and I prefer the Trio if you are in front on them. If you want the sound to be ok left and right on a large sofa for example, Genelec are better (for me). In a more treated room, I always prefer the Genelec.

Try the KEF R3, it should work well. If not, try the Focal.
 

thewas

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In my current listening room where I have a lot of hard reflective surfaces loudspeakers with narrower directivity work better, in my previous house where I had an acoustically more optimised room I was more flexible in the choice of loudspeakers.

Focal Trio 6 or 11 are good if you want to minimise reflections. I have the same kind of modern European room: all concrete, wall to wall windows, etc
I tested genelec 8361 and Focal Trio and I prefer the Trio if you are in front on them. If you want the sound to be ok left and right on a large sofa for example, Genelec are better (for me). In a more treated room, I always prefer the Genelec.
How will the Focal minimise reflections as a relatively wide radiating loudspeaker?

Here for example the Trio 11 vs 8361:

1636329328571.png


Sources of measurements:
 

fineMen

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Sources of measurements:
Both radiate more or less +/-60° wide (-6dB). The focussed Genelec appears to be just a bit more narrow, the general purpose Focal appears a bit ragged in comparison I would suspect that both speakers arbitrarily thrown into the same room would make quite similar noises.

The pros like to use a +/-30° by +/-20° pattern as not to spill precious sound energy to where it isn't needed. Two of those, aimed at the listener would leave just the reflections from the wall behind the listener. These then could be absorbed elegantly by an open window, or a big fat rug. Really rich people often hang costly rugs from the wall. Only minor chance to ruin them with lost liquids.

By this it could become a task for the interior designer? Stereo and design as a shared effort, not one following after the other?
 

thewas

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Both radiate more or less +/-60° wide (-6dB). The focussed Genelec appears to be just a bit more narrow, the general purpose Focal appears a bit ragged in comparison I would suspect that both speakers arbitrarily thrown into the same room would make quite similar noises.
Not really, the Focal has per average its -6 dB point around 80° and the Genelec less than 60° which also sounds quite different in rooms and listening positions where direct sound does not dominate.

1636353140474.png

The pros like to use a +/-30° by +/-20° pattern as not to spill precious sound energy to where it isn't needed.
Do you mean with pros studio monitors as to my knowledge most radiate wider than that?
 
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buz

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Thanks a lot all of you. Thinking I will wait a few more days if R meta appear, otherwise get R7 or R3 (or a mix for front and surround). AVR and sub can wait until we actually move. Worst case, if supply chains are stretched, I will bridge the gap with my oooold Denon AVR.

LS50 will go the office for now, for music only duty it's much easier to eq them properly anyhow.

As for the interior designer, on my own and completely free choice, it would end up being something white, black and a few shades of grey (plus some steel), very minimalist (possibly slightly yellowish or brownish non uniform tile as white and black floors are ALWAYS dirty). Alas, SO loves to decorate and will want the job :)
 

pierre

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In my current listening room where I have a lot of hard reflective surfaces loudspeakers with narrower directivity work better, in my previous house where I had an acoustically more optimised room I was more flexible in the choice of loudspeakers.


How will the Focal minimise reflections as a relatively wide radiating loudspeaker?

Here for example the Trio 11 vs 8361:

View attachment 163980

Sources of measurements:

I have Trio6 but I didn't know that they have that good measurements. They are more similar than what I thought. So I don't know why I hear a difference, maybe I did imagine it.

The pros like to use a +/-30° by +/-20° pattern as not to spill precious sound energy to where it isn't needed.

Both are studio monitors. In my experience, looking at the data we have on studio monitor, pattern is a lot wider than +/- 30.
 

GalZohar

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As for the interior designer, on my own and completely free choice, it would end up being something white, black and a few shades of grey (plus some steel), very minimalist (possibly slightly yellowish or brownish non uniform tile as white and black floors are ALWAYS dirty). Alas, SO loves to decorate and will want the job :)
Sounds like you will do well with gray concrete-like tiles. Something like this (or maybe a bit brighter):

eneregy_grey_concrete_effect_porcelain_floor_tile.jpg
 
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buz

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Sounds like you will do well with gray concrete-like tiles. Something like this (or maybe a bit brighter):

eneregy_grey_concrete_effect_porcelain_floor_tile.jpg
Really like those. Alas, current front runner has a super expensive dark wood floor which would not want to rip out just now.

Maybe if I ever manage to build a home...
 
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buz

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FWIW, just managed to get 4 Kef R3 for 2500EUR total.

Will look into subs and center when I actually move.
 
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