What to expect from headphones?

[quorzar]

Hi,

Im a big fan of speakers and its ability to "paint" the virtual image of the band that is playing. The difference in depth of the singer to the band itself, the space between the different band members with its instruments and the overall width of the virtual stage.

Now there is the big group of people who say that they prefer headphones over speakers. So I gave it a try some time ago, but it das disappointing for me. I tested it with my own source on really expensive ans well known headphones but I had the feeling that:

The virtual stage was near my head or even in my head. Because of this, the separation and depth was even all scaled down. They sound different but the main issue with the extreme near and narrow virtual stage was on every model. Even with the expensive DAC and AMP from the compwny XY itself. The same recording on speakers was amazing.

There are much points that are better in headphones for me but is it normal that my missing points are something that I cant get on headphones?

Regards

Michael

 

[Blumlein 88]

Yes in my experience that is normal. Speakers are better than headphones for musical enjoyment.

 

[solderdude]

The virtual stage was near my head or even in my head. Because of this, the separation and depth was even all scaled down. They sound different but the main issue with the extreme near and narrow virtual stage was on every model. Even with the expensive DAC and AMP from the compwny XY itself. The same recording on speakers was amazing.

Yes this is normal.
You can either learn to live with it (is what I did) and take headphones for what they are and do best.
Or you can use DSP such as crossfeed or other spatial effects.
Getting to hear the sound in front of you is something I never could achieve, not even with binaural recordings.

 

[maxxevv]

I gave many of the TOTL headphones a go at 2 separate editions of CanJam.

The only "headphone" that gave me a close to mimicking a speaker set's spatial cues without fancy DSP was the Raal SR1a.
The nature of their design and open setup, I'm not sure if they can be still called "headphones" though.

 

[Robin L]

Us headphone fans are used to hearing voices inside our heads.

 

[Frank Dernie]

The virtual stage was near my head or even in my head.

This is normal IME. I have heard loads of headphones, none have had a sound field anything like speakers.

 

[geek101]

Others may be better at explaining this, time coherence is a problem with most speakers with multiple drivers. There is no room effect with headphones either.

I enjoy the same music in both settings. There is something magical about headphones once you discount the bass that need your bones to feel. Once you get used to good headphones getting a decent speaker to present with that level of accuracy and cohesion will be a challenge. Again it could be your room that is the culprit, not the speakers.

 

[Snarfie]

Others may be better at explaining this, time coherence is a problem with most speakers with multiple drivers. There is no room effect with headphones either..

Could be wrong but because there is enough time coherence using speakers you get depth/ staging with speaker. For me this is way more important than plain accuracy. Depth/staging (especialy when using roomcorrection) creates for me a intimate listning experience something i never accomplish with headphones.

 

[quorzar]

Thanks for all the posts. So then I can sleep relaxed because Im not the only person who has that feeling. Lets build the next speaker pair xD

 

[LightninBoy]

Im a big fan of speakers and its ability to "paint" the virtual image of the band that is playing. The difference in depth of the singer to the band itself, the space between the different band members with its instruments and the overall width of the virtual stage.

Now there is the big group of people who say that they prefer headphones over speakers. So I gave it a try some time ago, but it das disappointing for me. I tested it with my own source on really expensive ans well known headphones but I had the feeling that:

The virtual stage was near my head or even in my head. Because of this, the separation and depth was even all scaled down. They sound different but the main issue with the extreme near and narrow virtual stage was on every model. Even with the expensive DAC and AMP from the compwny XY itself. The same recording on speakers was amazing.

There are much points that are better in headphones for me but is it normal that my missing points are something that I cant get on headphones?

Yes, that is normal and you've reached the same conclusion I did. Headphones cannot create the "you are there" vibe. Instead, headphones create the "they are in your head" vibe.

 

[garbulky]

I used to think exactly like most people here. That headphones simply cannot compare to speakers.
But I have since changed my opinion.
Some good headphones can give you impressive headspace. I found myself unsatisfied with the "in or by my head" feeling of headphones. For instance the Sennheiser HD600 is a good example.

My HD 700 allows for a larger headspace which was a lot more satisfying and closer to the experience of a speaker's soundstage. However it is not the same as a speaker - but close.

Another thing that gave my headphone listening a boost was to get a nice sounding headphone amp. My basx a-100 is one of the best purchases I made. However it's not the quietest amp and there is a slightly audible hiss and it's really meant for high impedance headphones. But it makes up for that by prodigiuous output power and a lot of detail that I haven't heard from most other headphone amps.

So I guess what I'm saying is that ... not every headphone is made the same. And there are headphones that can please speaker afficianados. The experience ipressed me so much that I have changed my focus of my upgrade path for speakers and decided to focus on a headphone upgrade.

 

[Hipper]

As solderdude says, there is software and hardware that can help:

https://smyth-research.com/

https://fongaudio.com/out-of-your-head-software/

I might try the latter one day.

 

[JJB70]

Headphone listening and speaker listening are very different but both can be hugely enjoyable. Speakers sound more natural but I find headphones provide a more accurate and detailed sound. Crossfeed can mitigate the extreme left - right stereo separation of headphones.

 

[pwjazz]

learn to live with it

This. Once I got used to listening with headphones (and applied crossfeed) I felt fine about the headstage. Headphones also have the advantage that they sound equally decent no matter where in the room you sit

 

[Robin L]

You don't get room effects with headphones. The stereo illusion—"Imaging"—is an illusion, much like a Viewmaster. If one sits in the ideal seat in a concert setting, then one will get enough in the way of direct audio cues for the kind of imaging favored by stereophiles. But most of the seats in a given venue don't image anything like stand-mounted LS3/5a speakers or desk speakers. Most of the time, it's a blur.

Left/right imaging with headphones tends to still be "inside the head", pure mono sits around the third eye. But room boom is never an issue, low-level details emerge that are often buried, it's easier to hear the notes [though harder to hear the room]. I've probably spent as much time listening via headphones as via speakers, and that's mostly for practical reasons. Neither situation sounds "real", but if one is focusing on the music rather than the "sound" it makes little difference.

Used to have Stax "Earspeakers". Binaural recordings over that headset had some of the image outside the head, forwards, backwards and to the sides. But the image was constrained, tended to sound closer than real life.

 

[Berwhale]

As solderdude says, there is software and hardware that can help:

https://smyth-research.com/

https://fongaudio.com/out-of-your-head-software/

I might try the latter one day.

I have a Fiio K3 DAC/Amp and I wanted to play with Dolby Atmos for Headphones on Windows 10 (which I think this cost me ~£12 a while back). I found that DAfH would not work through the Fiio ASIO driver (it made no discernible difference), I had to switch to DirectSound or WASAPI to hear a change. I'm currently listening listening to Dark Side of the Moon (24 bit, 96Khz FLAC) through MusicBee configured to use WASAPI (Exclusive), it definitely sounds different (less centred behind my forehead), i'm not sure if it sounds any better yet. I have AKG K712Pro headphones and a JDS Labs Atom Amp.

*update* I liked the sound of Floyd with DAfH, then I tried one of my favourite recent recordings - Paranoid Android (Remaster) from OK Computer OKNOTOK 1997-2017 by Radio Head - 24bit, 96Khz - this track sounded awful; like all the instruments had been mashed left and right into the headphone ear cups with the vocals stretched between them. I wonder if this is a result of how the original recordings have been mucked about with in the remastering process?

 

[Nango]

Hi,
I tested it with my own source on really expensive ans well known headphones but I had the feeling that:

The virtual stage was near my head or even in my head. Because of this, the separation and depth was even all scaled down. They sound different but the main issue with the extreme near and narrow virtual stage was on every model. Even with the expensive DAC and AMP from the compwny XY itself. The same recording on speakers was amazing.

This phenomenon you describe is widely studied and known under In-Head-Localisation (IKL, from german: "In-Kopf-Lokalisation"). Expect up to 2 years of regular training (listening, includes visiting of live events, concert halls, etc.) with headphones until the acoustic picture builds up in front of you while using headphones.

Search the web for that, it is extremely rewarding once you achieve its magic!!! Yes @solderdude: It's magic LOL !!!!

https://www.ingentaconnect.com/contentone/dav/aaua/1972/00000026/00000005/art00003
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=2591
http://publica.fraunhofer.de/documents/N-14247.html
PDF in german language (1972): http://web.pdx.edu/~fischerw/proj_pub/papa_joe/media_and_docs/hasselblatt_br_archive/72_acustica.pdf
https://asa.scitation.org/doi/10.1121/1.1912233

Abstract Fraunhofer:
Most of the existing theories of the origin of 'In Head Localization' (IKL) concentrate on IKL arising in connection with sound produced by electroacoustic devices. In doing so, contradictions arise between the theories based on the application of headphones and those considering IKL in connection with the use of loudspeakers. The new hypothesis presented gives a non-conflicting explanation of all observed cases of IKL. Although, IKL mostly appears in connection with sound produced by electroacoustic devices this hypothesis assumes that, as a matter of principle, IKL cannot be explained by certain characteristics of electroacoustic transmission procedures. It is assumed that under certain circumstances a correct localization is possible only after a brief learning process on the characteristics of the sound source and the room where it sounds. A disturbance of this process can be the reason of the appearance of IKL.

 

[solderdude]

The only time I sometimes hear 'magic', the moment music on a headphone is not totally between the ears, is at moments I am on the verge of falling asleep.
This seems to be a brain thing.. have never been able to experience this magic when fully awake.

Although I do find good headphones magic I don't believe fairies are responsible for this.

With excellent speakers I can hear a great 3-dimensional sound stage in front of me.
With mediocre speakers its just a blob of instruments.

 

[Nango]

@solderdude try hard, harder, it needs training and believing (like always). You dont get a football and immediately are like Messi!!

Well with mediocre headphones you will never experience the magic of listening on headphones but virtually being in a concert hall (with closed eyes, obviously). Btw what you call "brain thing" is always magic!!

 

[solderdude]

try hard, harder, it needs training.

Well with mediocre headphones you will never experience the magic of listening on headphones

That must be it ... I just haven't tried long enough on my mediocre headphone.

I am quite sure it is a brain thingy.
Some actually hear 3D with headphones others never will despite best efforts.
The few times I heard it, just before falling asleep on rare occasions I also heard using mediocre KSC75 for instance.

David copperfield ... that's magic.... or is it an illusion ?