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What to do about the ABX test?

dlaloum

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I have no idea what you are talking about. Here is an example of ABX testing that was done by the very people who popularized such tests:


i-NVbTMcL-XL.png

How is this not "comparing one device to another to determine if you can tell them apart?"
And what that testing demonstrated is that when an amplifier is driven outside of its optimal/rated operating envelope, it "misbehaves" and that misbehaviour, varies with different amplifier designs - which makes the differences audibly different.

Similar tests, which used easier to drive speakers (not ones which at the top end drop down to 1ohm or less!!) - and stayed well within the optimal operating envelope of the amps being compared ... found that they all sounded identical....

Yeah they CAN sound different - but if the amps are matched to the speakers... no they don't sound different.
 
OP
Blumlein 88

Blumlein 88

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Sometimes, there's something that has an effect like a shoe that's too tight; as time goes on, it gets more and more irritating. That's what I take "bad sound" to mean.

Yes, it's possible for people to become accustomed to aggravating issues. But I really doubt that our brains are "happy to accept" aggravation as the "new normal". They simply tolerate it because they have to. When an opportunity for something better comes along, the brain is eager to jump the rails and change allegiances, so to speak.

I think this is especially true for things that we do for relaxation and enjoyment. How can a person enjoy something if it is aggravating or irritating?

Jim
Counterpoint:

Have you listened to some cheap earbuds that I see people wear almost all hours during which they are awake? I don't know what you could call them except irritating.
 

Ken1951

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Counterpoint:

Have you listened to some cheap earbuds that I see people wear almost all hours during which they are awake? I don't know what you could call them except irritating.
The very vast majority of people have no reference for sound reproduction, or even I think care or think about it. I don't think I know anyone who owns a system of any sort. A few might have soundbars for TV, but no system, HT or otherwise. So they listen to music on their phones with earbuds or headphones. They like music.
 

Galliardist

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And what that testing demonstrated is that when an amplifier is driven outside of its optimal/rated operating envelope, it "misbehaves" and that misbehaviour, varies with different amplifier designs - which makes the differences audibly different.

Similar tests, which used easier to drive speakers (not ones which at the top end drop down to 1ohm or less!!) - and stayed well within the optimal operating envelope of the amps being compared ... found that they all sounded identical....

Yeah they CAN sound different - but if the amps are matched to the speakers... no they don't sound different.
I've had this debate a couple of times. It goes like this:"the amplifiers only sound different with (insert name of B&W or Magico printer here) so obviously my speakers are more revealing"
 

dorakeg

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Nice sound is a recipe for good mood,and people around you get that profit too.

This one I have to say it largely differs between people and the "quality" is alot more than the actual sound. Eg. if the song/music thats going to be played is from an artist that the person really hate, I am pretty sure its going to sound aweful even before he/she hears it. I also have to point out that people likes/hates artists for various reasons and alot of the reasons has nothing to do wiith the songs they sing.

I think this situation is rather unavoidable in any listening test. Unless people are just listening to test tones, any song/music played is composed and played by someone.

Haha, we humans are rather perculiar beings...
 

Galliardist

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This one I have to say it largely differs between people and the "quality" is alot more than the actual sound. Eg. if the song/music thats going to be played is from an artist that the person really hate, I am pretty sure its going to sound aweful even before he/she hears it. I also have to point out that people likes/hates artists for various reasons and alot of the reasons has nothing to do wiith the songs they sing.

I think this situation is rather unavoidable in any listening test. Unless people are just listening to test tones, any song/music played is composed and played by someone.

Haha, we humans are rather perculiar beings...
Yes, but if we are testing for difference, a disliked piece of music will still sound the same or different. And in the case we are talking about here where somebody is testing their own equipment in their own home, they probably aren't going to choose music they don't like!
 

voodooless

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Yes, but if we are testing for difference, a disliked piece of music will still sound the same or different. And in the case we are talking about here where somebody is testing their own equipment in their own home, they probably aren't going to choose music they don't like!
Bedsides, with the night and day difference often claimed, one would think that they would also manifest to songs one doesn’t like. If not, that already tells you that there is a psychological element to it.
 

Sokel

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Bedsides, with the night and day difference often claimed, one would think that they would also manifest to songs one doesn’t like. If not, that already tells you that there is a psychological element to it.
Oh,that is so true.
Amongst others,Pan Sonic is one of my regular band of testing stuff (both because it reaches gear to limits and music is what I hate but I can understand).
My favs distract me to the point I air conduct :facepalm:
 

Sokel

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Sometimes, there's something that has an effect like a shoe that's too tight; as time goes on, it gets more and more irritating. That's what I take "bad sound" to mean.



Jim
Exactly that.Worst case is when this circular headache starts to arise.It's really physical.
 

lashto

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..,My first experience posting about my blind tests, in the late 90's, concerned a shoot out between two CD players and a DAC. I seemed to hear some distinct differences and knowing properly functioning CD players/DACs should sound the same, and seeing the skepticism by the more "objectivist" characters on the usenet high end audio newsgroup, I did a blind test. I easily identified the CD players/DAC and posted the results and method. The skeptics were still skeptical and offered ways of tightening up the test. I took their advice, re-ran the tests, and once again posted the method/results and the almost perfect scores for identifying differences. At that point some of the skeptics were still skeptical, and some frankly seemed to be grasping at straws as to how the tests could have been skewed (e.g. suggesting the person switching and the subject could have been exchanging silent cues, which was extremely implausible given our test method).

Ultimately some accepted the results, and some kept their heals dug in. (JJ, who regularly posted there, offered some help and also "came to my defense" in face of the hyper-skepticism being lobbed my way).

My take-away from this was: I tentatively accepted the results of my blind test. By that I mean, I felt sure I heard the differences, and the test seemed pretty good, but I would never rule out error. There was no lab to go over my results. Just a guy trying to do his best.
..
you do have a very good 'stomach' :)
But how many people do? And why should they, for the vast majority it's just a hobby about the pleasure of listening...

If ASR wants to "take over the world", it should be first and foremost a forum for the people. With science as a close second.
If you need to compromise, do it for the people. It's not even that big of a compromise: just keep the facepalms for yourself and tone down the "hyper skepticism". And/or serve it with a nicety like "many thanks for your effort". Or give them a bone or whatever.

Yes, many people look like hopeless cases. And/or are seriously annoying. And many/most will not be convinced by just one test/post/explanation. But ask yourself: are you usually convinced that fast/easy ?

If we just stop pushing people so hard, they'll stay around and keep reading. And the chances are good that they will have a 'revelation' at some point. Sounds like a win-win to me.
 

lashto

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I've spoken to people who lived in the age when you had early radio and the acoustic gramophone to choose from, and they were astounded by the wonder that they could hear so much music performed well that never got played in concerts and were beyond their and their friends' ability to play. It wasn't bad sound to them, at all.

Context counts for a lot.
true.
Your definition of "bad sound" also counts a lot.

I have a particular one. Due to sensitivity to highs I feel the proverbial "ear fatigue" quite often and sometimes even needles-in-ears pain. The ear fatigue is my definition of "bad sound". And no way to live with that.

Many would call a 40 dB SINAD tube amp "very bad sound". With facepalms and all. Not me, I like my SET. Generally like all tubed devices (many audio and non-audio reasons, including that I never had ear pains from those).

The gramophone I would also call bad sound. Screechy and annoying tone/distortion (at least the ones I heard).

The early radios, not so much. Grandpa had an old tube radio kinda like this. It would crack & distort like crazy, probably from both tube overload and speakers pushed beyond their capabilities (and age). And I really liked that one. Not sure if I liked it in spite of the distortion or because of the distortion. I tend to think "because". In any case, that radio might just be my no1 favorite audio device ever.

Long story short: we need some definitions here. Your personal "bad sound" may not be same as anyone else's...
 
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Killingbeans

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Sometimes, there's something that has an effect like a shoe that's too tight; as time goes on, it gets more and more irritating. That's what I take "bad sound" to mean.

Yes, it's possible for people to become accustomed to aggravating issues. But I really doubt that our brains are "happy to accept" aggravation as the "new normal". They simply tolerate it because they have to. When an opportunity for something better comes along, the brain is eager to jump the rails and change allegiances, so to speak.

I think this is especially true for things that we do for relaxation and enjoyment. How can a person enjoy something if it is aggravating or irritating?

Jim

I remember a while back my girlfriend was listening to loud music using the built in speakers on her PC monitor. She came to me and asked why she was getting a headache when she had been listening for more than a few minutes. I explained to her that she was probably listening to way more distortion than music.

That's definitely an example of sound being too aggravating to be tolerable :D

On the other hand, I often see when people finally stop using blind upgraditis as a way of hunting for audio nirvana and do effective changes instead, it's accompanied by a comment like: "I had no idea my old setup was that bad!". That's what I include in my personal definition of "bad sound". The stuff that people are blissfully unaware of.

BTW, sorry for going off topic.
 

Killingbeans

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If we just stop pushing people so hard, they'll stay around and keep reading. And the chances are good that they will have a 'revelation' at some point. Sounds like a win-win to me.

Definitely. But the trick is to identify whether they are genuinely curious, or just here to wreak havoc.

A lot of new users appears to see themselves as missionaries of the shining truth of sighted listening. They have zero interest in reading anything ASR has to offer.
 

Ken1951

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Definitely. But the trick is to identify whether they are genuinely curious, or just here to wreak havoc.

A lot of new users appears to see themselves as missionaries of the shining truth of sighted listening. They have zero interest in reading anything ASR has to offer.
Perfect example is the recent postings on the Pass Labs headphone amp. All the $100 devices you test with great measurements sound like crap. I love this amp. Why bother to test. The tested item is broken. Etc, Etc, Etc.

That's not going to change no matter what evidence is presented, what FAQs are provided. Maybe some new visitor who's lurking might be guided, but so many drive-bys convinced of their and their equipments superiority are not.
 

Thomas_A

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ABX is fun! At least when there is a chance to score positive outcomes.

That should be the message. :)
 

RichB

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Thanks @Blumlein 88 for this topic.

I did my first listening test to decide if I should bi-amp my Salon2s with two extra channels.
Years before, I used the AVR to do the channels but decided against it because it introduces another variable.

I settled on this testing methodology:

- Y Split a single channel
- Use two amplifier channels and a single speaker (inspired by Harmon speaker testing)
- Remove the straps and create a 12" path cable and stacking banana plugs to allow quick swapping between 1 amp and 2
- Use an iPad to allow the user to select tracks and ask for channels to be switched
- Listen at listening levels in the low to mid 80 dB at a few feet from the speaker to limit room interaction
- Level matching is not required
- Switching is done out of sight by an person behind the speakers, takes a few seconds.

This was a single blind test with the 3 listeners.
I did not record the results or tries but it was about 3 sessions for each person, and all were reliably able to pick identify the differences.
All felt there was better clarity with the bi-amp option.

As a result, the Salon2s owner and I have decided to bi-amp the mains.
Is there a technical explanation, sure the load is changed on the amplifiers and the crossovers, that are physically isolated (to reduce interference) are now electrically isolated.

The power used was low given the listening levels.
Another controversial topic, where online arm-chair posters will flay you.
This is a simple inexpensive test at home. Costs you maybe some cable, connectors and time.
Then, decide for yourself.

This proves nothing from a scientific perspective, but that was not the purpose.
It comes back to the question, what experiments can be done at home to aid in buying decisions?
This was one of those.

- Rich
 
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RichB

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ABX is fun! At least when there is a chance to score positive outcomes.

That should be the message. :)

Listening tests are tough to get right, adding an X to the selections make it worse.
Harmon does A/B listening tests for their speaker tests for good reason.
Add a third and people minds start to melt :p

- Rich
 

SIY

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Two common things keep popping up here:

1. Poor (fluid) specification of specifically what is being tested.

2. Conflation of the use of basic controls with ABX.
 

lashto

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Definitely. But the trick is to identify whether they are genuinely curious, or just here to wreak havoc.

A lot of new users appears to see themselves as missionaries of the shining truth of sighted listening. They have zero interest in reading anything ASR has to offer.
true. But one can just use the "ignore" button.
The true havoc-masters can and should be managed by admins.

Much easier said then done, I know.
My ignore list is actually empty, I find that function kind of rude. And I might just be too curious for it..
 
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