What the Espresso Revolution Can Teach Audiophiles

[Somafunk]

I like my music playback system for listening to audio/music, and I like my grinder/espresso machine for making my daily cappuccinos but I’m soooooooooo not an audiophile nor a coffee snob

To prove the point (somewhat) a mate emigrated to New Zealand two years ago/2024 and offered me his as new/mostly unused Rancillo Silva pro machine and matching grinder for £250 (mates rates) as I got him into decent coffee 20+ years ago but I told him I was perfectly happy with my lowly sage grinder pro and sage duo espresso machine, I’ve had the pair for 10+ years without a single issue and 150kg of beans through/used with them so I have no intention or desire to change.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

Today, espresso making has embraced a more measurement-oriented approach:

• Scales are commonplace.
• Precision grinders have improved dramatically.
• Scientific understanding of extraction has expanded.

I might be wrong because I haven’t looked but my guess is that there are equally vicious flame wars, heated debates and arguments over on coffee forums.
Scales and calibrated tampers and automatic temperature controlled milk steamers give a “cold digital” coffee. Hell, the real purists will insist on manual extraction. At least that’s what Michael Crema endorses

 

[xanalog]

I am on the fence about this comparo.

I love my quad-shots (+ my WSJ) in the mornings, but I intentionally use a lever-machine that has just an electrical thermostat to auto turn-off the boiler.
The same lever-machine has been made since the 1960s. After about 4 years of using a digital scale, I no longer need it for bean or dose weight. I have a spiffy micro-adjustable grinder, but that is also devoid of any digititus or software.

Although software plays an inextricably big role in audio, I don't have such a big appetite for software-driven audio hardware.

I am also not certain if other people, who get musical pleasure out of records and/or tubed gear, would also agree with this comparo.

Hell, the real purists will insist on manual extraction.

I'll call a moderator, if you call me a purist, again!

 

[Snarfie]

View attachment 538761

The home espresso market has succumbed to utter bullpoop similar to some of the poop we find in the hifi world. It's all about trying to sell you extras that you don't need under the false pretence that there will be an improvement. And placebo and expectation bias fool enough people.

The home barista rituals are hilarious. The number of gadgets peole now have that add to the workflow is quite something. Of course they could just get the basics right. For example, dose the basket by volume rather than weight. It's amazing how many people don't do it yet have spent $$$$ on equipment.

-=insert your favourite facepalm image here=-

My Melitta Caffeo Solo has taught me that the cheapest espresso accessory is still observation.

When the stream starts blonding and turning watery, I stop it. That's it. No scales, no needles, no screens, no ritual. Close to 100% same tasty result

 

[RedVikingHood]

When it was time to get an espresso machine and grinder, the goal was to be able to make espresso and cappuccinos (my wife drinks them), to the same quality as our favourite coffee shops. As long as you understand the different challenges that the home barista faces compared to a commercial barista, it's actually easy as long as you follow the basic principles that apply to both. Our machine and grinder cost the equivalent of about $600. The espresso I make is as good as the best coffee shops. No RST, no WDT, no levelers, no NCD Pulse, no calibrated tamper, no naked portafilter, no specialised shower screen, no boutique basket, and not even a dosing ring or funnel.

So how can we transpose this to HiFi?

With the home barista it has become about the ritual, and perhaps for some HiFi enthusiasts it's like that too - certainly the vinylists amongst us. We certainly could apply the Pareto principle to the cost versus outcome for both of these endeavours. As I mentioned in a previous post There are those who spend quite obscene amounts of money to make an espresso but fail because they don't adhere to the basics. The example I gave was dosing your basket by volume and only then converting that to a weight for your ratio so you can follow a specific recipe. Most people are not doing this yet this is more important than any of the ritual tools that I mentioned in the previous paragraph. Where is the parallel in HiFi?

The room. The treatment of the room, finding the optimum listening position in that room and setting up the speakers accordingly.

 

[Chrispy]

I definitely get more variation from the espresso process than audio. Not much to learn from the espresso in that regard.

 

[BeeKay]

I’ve got an Italian espresso machine and a precision grinder with a scale. But honestly, day-to-day I often just grind coarse and grab the French press — keeps things simple.

Same goes for audio. The deep listening sessions are more the exception than the rule.

Both work great, neither one’s better than the other. It just depends on the mood.

 

[Chrispy]

I’ve got an Italian espresso machine and a precision grinder with a scale. But honestly, day-to-day I often just grind coarse and grab the French press — keeps things simple.

Same goes for audio. The deep listening sessions are more the exception than the rule.

Both work great, neither one’s better than the other. It just depends on the mood.

Yep, have a couple espresso options that take time/setup and usually just opt for my aeropress.

 

[RedVikingHood]

remember folks espresso is a drink that is quick and easy to make as long as you understand what you're doing. A french press or aero press should not be faster than making an espresso.

 

[Chrispy]

remember folks espresso is a drink that is quick and easy to make as long as you understand what you're doing. A french press or aero press should not be faster than making an espresso.

Not particularly due the necessary grind vs something like a french press or aeropress, at least with my hand grinder for something beyond basic french press or aeropress. Some machines make this easier but at much greater cost....

 

[RedVikingHood]

Not particularly due the necessary grind vs something like a french press or aeropress, at least with my hand grinder for something beyond basic french press or aeropress. Some machines make this easier but at much greater cost....

for the equivalent of $500 (US), you can have a setup that would enable you to make 3rd wave hipster boutique quality espresso at home.

 

[Chrispy]

for the equivalent of $500 (US), you can have a setup that would enable you to make 3rd wave hipster boutique quality espresso at home.

Maybe just for the machine let alone grinder.

 

[Sokel]

Is the 1 million euro Javabot the Wilson of espresso gear?

Certainly makes stuff like the one below look like a bargain with its humble 15k euro.

Seriously now, I love espresso and unlike some other stuff I don't want it to be perfect.
I have the same dosage meter for years, and that's it.

I did gave the extra cent for an installed Miele but that was part of the whole kitchen and we rarely use it.

Pattern is familiar though, the moment it'll become a hobby, sky is the limit, as with any hobby.

 

[Chrispy]

Somewhat reminds me of a customer of mine who was a major importer and servicer of commercial espressso machines. The servicing was where the money was.....

 

[RexrothPigeon]

I might be wrong because I haven’t looked but my guess is that there are equally vicious flame wars, heated debates and arguments over on coffee forums.

You are correct, it's even happening here on ASR. In this thread.

The home espresso market has succumbed to utter bullpoop similar to some of the poop we find in the hifi world. It's all about trying to sell you extras that you don't need under the false pretence that there will be an improvement. And placebo and expectation bias fool enough people.

The home barista rituals are hilarious. The number of gadgets peole now have that add to the workflow is quite something. Of course they could just get the basics right. For example, dose the basket by volume rather than weight. It's amazing how many people don't do it yet have spent $$$$ on equipment.

-=insert your favourite facepalm image here=

 

[BeeKay]

Anyway - this thread is a perfect reminder to brew another espresso. Was neglected for a while.

 

[RedVikingHood]

Maybe just for the machine let alone grinder.

both

 

[BeeKay]

both

On what planet?

 

[RedVikingHood]

On what planet?

many of the budget and mid tier machines are made in one factory in China. they are distributed under different brand names in Europe and the US etc. but in some parts of the world you can get them considerably cheaper.

 

[anonyless]

What do you think? Is audio following the same path that espresso did, or are these two hobbies fundamentally different?

i love the comparison
i only got into home brewing espresso about 3 years ago, with manual (but modern) lever machines.
modern espresso brewing feels to me like a point where science meets cooking , but with modern tools that make consistency much easier - somewhat like audio.
but the big difference as i see it, is the ground material - if you brew old commercial ground coffee , the chances of getting a tasty shot are slim. unlike audio today where you can buy relatively cheap equipment and still get your system to sound great subjectively .