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What SHOULD An HT Center Channel Speaker Sound Like?

Peluvius

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Further, why doesn't anybody make a powered center channel speaker for HT? In adding a center channel to a 2.1 system to accommodate HT, why can't we just take the high-level lines to the main channel speakers, feed them as signals into an amp in the center channel, and use bandwidth shaping to accommodate dialog, not all the music and car crash sounds? Is Atmos a law of nature?

I am using a powered (active) center channel in my 5.1 and it works very well. I am comparing that to passives i have used over the years, it is an improvement.
 

abdo123

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I am using a powered (active) center channel in my 5.1 and it works very well. I am comparing that to passives i have used over the years, it is an improvement.
Do you use a computer as your source or do you have a processor?
 

dougi

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Centres can certainly be difficult to setup across wide listening angles. My wife sits at about 45 degrees to the centre and had problems with intelligibility. From the below plot you can see why, with upper bass blowing out vocals and a crossover dip. (this is PMC DB1+ centre with Yamaha RXA2A AVR). The PMC is a two way placed horizontally. Xover to sub is 80 Hz.

wife_original.jpg


After experimenting, the best was with YPAO off, some basic manual GEQ and turning it upside down:

wife_after.jpg


It's a bit bright at my (much more optimal position) and you can tell the sub is EQ'ed for it! :

couch_centre.jpg


The wife claims she can understand dialogue better, so that was a win.
 
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Just my two cents...sealed center channels work better than ported.And yes dialog usually falls in that crucial 150hz range that a lot of rooms have issues with so room eq is essential be it dsp or treatment.
 

Chrispy

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Why should a speaker "sound like" something in particular? Shouldn't it simply be capable of a full range of frequencies at a relatively flat response within reason? What's the point of having a limited center?
 

Salida

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Why should a speaker "sound like" something in particular? Shouldn't it simply be capable of a full range of frequencies at a relatively flat response within reason? What's the point of having a limited center?
No point. I think center channel speakers should be 3 way designs with a vertically oriented tweeter-midrange and larger 6” to 8” mid-woofers for decent LF power handling. That and timbre-matched to the mains. If not the same brand then at least similar drivers. Or even better the same speaker for L,C,R.

What really happens is center channels need to fit under a flat panel TV so most end up size limited designs and many are OoO orientations which is just bad design.

In an HT setup with a center, the center becomes the most important speaker.
 

Sancus

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I feel like this OP is based on a lot of misconceptions, some have already been corrected by others but I'll just summarize with a few citations. This comes up a lot.

1) As others have stated, the center plays the majority of audio in HT mch material, including the vast majority of foley as well as music, depending on the mix. The idea that it's a "dialog speaker" is very wrong.

2) The ideal directivity of the center speaker is "same as the other speakers". This has been shown in the research. You really don't want to mix directivity in your LCR if you can help it.

3) Active vs passive speakers doesn't have much to do with the center specifically. There are active speakers you can use for HT if you wish. My entire setup is active. The reason mainstream HT vendors rarely make active speakers is because AVRs already have amps, and 1 cable per speaker is better than 2 cables for the average setup. The likely future of active HT speakers is removing the signal cables entirely, which is already being attempted by Klipsch and others.

4) In addition to anchoring sound for off-axis listeners better, center speakers sound better than "phantom center", IF they are a good speaker. This is well-documented in Toole's book. "Phantom center" definitely does work better than a poor center, however. Multi-channel material with a *good* center has generally more stable and clearer imaging than stereo.
 
OP
Jim Shaw

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jsilvela

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Why do we test home theatre dialog (center channel) speakers as if they are expected to be like mains?

Is it unreasonable to expect HTCC speakers to be optimized for human speech? Yet we persist in expecting them to have the same quality and character as the main front channel speakers. We know the range for intelligibility of the human voice, and it ISN'T 20 Hz to 20 kHz. It's more like 150 Hz to 5kHz. And it should be cardioid, not all beamy with 2 woofers and two tweeters.
.....
Further, why doesn't anybody make a powered center channel speaker for HT? In adding a center channel to a 2.1 system to accommodate HT, why can't we just take the high-level lines to the main channel speakers, feed them as signals into an amp in the center channel, and use bandwidth shaping to accommodate dialog, not all the music and car crash sounds? Is Atmos a law of nature?

As a crowd of one, but possibly more, I would like very much to buy a single box, place it dead center in front of the TV, plug it in, connect a couple of small signal leads to the main channel speakers, tune it up, and voila! have better dialog. And not have to step back to a sound bar, or up to a rack of hardware, MDF boxes, and more remote controls to do it.

Klipsch, Polk, Emotiva, and all the rest: why is there no such product?

-Just one guy's view, who's anti-wire clutter and 7.1.1 contraptions.
[stepping aside and awaiting all the it-can't-be-done testimonies.]
Very late here, but discovered ASR recently and been perusing the threads on Home Theater.
Your idea seems very interesting. I would like a simple way of improving dialog too.
On what you propose though:
- if the center speaker subtracted the 150hz - 5khz from the mains, would that not compromise the mains? There's a lot of non-dialog sound in that same band.
- and if it added to the mains, would we not have the same problems with destructive interference that we have with two speakers and phantom center?

But I do like the gist of your proposal. The AVR route to home cinema is frustratingly clunky.
Also: on DVD/BluRay players, there's ofen a "Dialog Enhancer" mode of some sort that raises the dialog frequencies. Have you tried that?
 

Kal Rubinson

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Why do we test home theatre dialog (center channel) speakers as if they are expected to be like mains?
Because they are not dialog speakers but center channel speakers. That means that they support sound effects and music in the frontal area in addition to dialog. That's just the same as with the other speakers which also must support (off center) dialog along with the rest of the signals.
 

Chromatischism

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Very late here, but discovered ASR recently and been perusing the threads on Home Theater.
Your idea seems very interesting. I would like a simple way of improving dialog too.
On what you propose though:
- if the center speaker subtracted the 150hz - 5khz from the mains, would that not compromise the mains? There's a lot of non-dialog sound in that same band.
- and if it added to the mains, would we not have the same problems with destructive interference that we have with two speakers and phantom center?

But I do like the gist of your proposal. The AVR route to home cinema is frustratingly clunky.
Also: on DVD/BluRay players, there's ofen a "Dialog Enhancer" mode of some sort that raises the dialog frequencies. Have you tried that?
His entire premise is flawed because the center channel is not a "dialogue" speaker. There is no such thing in THX, DTS, or Dolby spec.
 
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Jim Shaw

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Because they are not dialog speakers but center channel speakers. That means that they support sound effects and music in the frontal area in addition to dialog. That's just the same as with the other speakers which also must support (off center) dialog along with the rest of the signals.
If what you say is correct, why do cinematographers call the center channel the "dialog channel?" Every film sound guy I ever knew calls it that.
 
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Jim Shaw

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His entire premise is flawed because the center channel is not a "dialogue" speaker. There is no such thing in THX, DTS, or Dolby spec.
But that's not the case in 2.1 and 5.1 film audio recording. It's the dialog channel. And it's probably why so few 'center channel' speakers are the same specs as mains. They're best intended to reproduce dialog clearly, probably not so much cannon fire. But here, we bitch because they often aren't "hifi".
 
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Jim Shaw

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- if the center speaker subtracted the 150hz - 5khz from the mains, would that not compromise the mains? There's a lot of non-dialog sound in that same band.
- and if it added to the mains, would we not have the same problems with destructive interference that we have with two speakers and phantom center?

But I do like the gist of your proposal. The AVR route to home cinema is frustratingly clunky.
Also: on DVD/BluRay players, there's ofen a "Dialog Enhancer" mode of some sort that raises the dialog frequencies. Have you tried that?
I can't see why one would subtract the 150-5k Hz... Destructive interference is a fact of life for any and all multi-speaker layouts playing some of the other speakers' content.
 
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