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What room dimension ratios are best or worst for Sennheiser Ambeo acoustics?

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mel

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My main living space is shaped like a "race track oval". Would a Sennheiser Ambeo provide good acoustics in this shape?
  • 36' x 15' x 9' (13m x 5m x 3m, LWH).
    • I don't find the 13m x 5m ratio conducive for a 5.1 setup.
    • I am considering a Genelec configuration, but the shape of the space is awkward for a Genelec system.
  • A 2m (six foot high) "knee wall" separates the main living area from the small bedroom.
    • The bedroom is irregularly shaped, but roughly 10'x 10' x 9' (or roughly 3m x 3m x 3m).
    • The knee wall is roughly in the center of the main living space.
  • I open to taking some type of audio measurements that I am unaware of, if that would somehow help.
  • The Ambeo is 127cm wide and 14cm tall
    • Would fit perfectly on top of the 8 foot long knee wall that is six feet from the floor.
    • Connected to a subwoofer.
  • My basic 24" SoundCore soundbar works very well at the foot of my bed.

My desktop configuration is an:
  • RME DAC
  • AudioEngine HD3 (micro) speakers and
  • two REL T/Zero Mark III subwoofers.
The system sounds great because it fits my situation extremely well, not because it is the best audio equipment. I listen to Tidal "Master" lossless at:
  • normal conversation volume levels (60 db?)
  • arm's length distance
  • acoustic music
    • jazz
    • classical
https://assets.ctfassets.net/4zjnzn.../Genelec_Immersive_Solutions_Guide_-_2021.pdf

These rectangular 7.1.4 and circular 5.1 layout diagrams differ substantially.
I am only interested in 5.1 music, without consideration for TV. I don't own a TV.
  • The seating position ("S") for 5.1 circular diagram is positioned at the center of the room, not oriented according to the walls.
  • The flaw with rectangular positioning is that it ignores acoustic focal points achieved by an oval shape.
  • Dolby Atmos 7.1.4 is not a direct overlay over 5.1.
    • The positions, distances, angles and wall orientation differ.

index.php


5.1 audio positioning layout. The walls are missing from this diagram, so assume a square room. The chair is positioned in the center of the square.


index.php
 
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MakeMineVinyl

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I would imagine the same room dimensions which are considered good for stereo listening. But with virtual imaging you want to be in the direct field of the speakers as much as possible, and have as little contribution from the walls of the room as possible. The sound from the room is only confusing the phase and level manipulation which makes virtual imaging possible. Myself, I have very directional horns 1/3rd of the way into the room, aimed directly at me, with my listening position about 1/3rd the way from the wall behind me. The room has about a 400mSec decay time which is pretty independent of frequency except for the very low bass. Recordings with virtualization cues (including the Ambeo demo) image great with sources of sound all around me. My office system here at work is regular tower speakers in a normal room, and there is absolutely no virtual imaging.
 
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mel

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I would imagine the same room dimensions which are considered good for stereo listening. But with virtual imaging you want to be in the direct field of the speakers as much as possible, and have as little contribution from the walls of the room as possible. The sound from the room is only confusing the phase and level manipulation which makes virtual imaging possible. Myself, I have very directional horns 1/3rd of the way into the room, aimed directly at me, with my listening position about 1/3rd the way from the wall behind me. The room has about a 400mSec decay time which is pretty independent of frequency except for the very low bass. Recordings with virtualization cues (including the Ambeo demo) image great with sources of sound all around me. My office system here at work is regular tower speakers in a normal room, and there is absolutely no virtual imaging.

The Ambeo would also fit proportionally well at the foot of my bed.
 

abdo123

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Why don't you ask Sennheiser? They will probably know their product the most compared to random people on the internet ;)
 

Berwhale

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Why don't you ask Sennheiser? They will probably know their product the most compared to random people on the internet ;)

Asking a question about a speaker and room accoustics on a forum dedicated to the subject it is not really 'asking random people on the internet'. I could have said RTFM, but it was more helpful to provide the link to it! ;)
 

abdo123

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Asking a question about a speaker and room accoustics on a forum dedicated to the subject it is not really 'asking random people on the internet'. I could have said RTFM, but it was more helpful to provide the link to it! ;)

That soundbar has a proprietry design and a propriety radiation pattern, you providing that link is the most any one of us can do. ;)
 
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mel

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There's some information on positioning of the Ambeo here: Sennheiser AMBEO Soundbar (sennheiser-cloud.com) I think that mounting it 6 feet in the air may be an issue top firing drivers (they'll be too close to the ceiling).

My guess is approximately a 15:2 ratio, based on this picture. Generally speaking, not too dissimilar to my 13:5 ratio.

I am more interested in eliminating it from consideration, than finding the optimal ratio.

Soundbar_aufstellen_optimal.png
 
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abdo123

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My guess is approximately a 15:2 ratio, based on this picture.

Soundbar_aufstellen_optimal.png

that's a less or equal not more or equal sign for the 15 meters. otherwise the sound will be so far away, that sound bar will definitely not have enough juice to play sound adequately loud at such distances.
 
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mel

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that's a less or equal not more or equal sign for the 15 meters. otherwise the sound will be so far away, that sound bar will definitely not have enough juice to play sound adequately loud at such distances.

I am mostly concerned about ratios, not actual distances, at this early stage. What might roughly work or fail.

At the foot of my bed, the ratio is roughly 3:5:5 (LWH).
 
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Berwhale

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I would also add that the Ambeo is consitently available as 'B-Stock' on the Sennheiser Outlet stores in Europe...

1625762249315.png


I rarely see HD650/660s/800s, etc. on the outlet, I don't recall seeing another pair of HD660s since I bought them over a year ago. One might want to question why the Ambeo is everpresent before comitting to purchasing one :)
 
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mel

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I would also add that the Ambeo is consitently available as 'B-Stock' on the Sennheiser Outlet stores in Europe...

View attachment 139873

I rarely see HD650/660s/800s, etc. on the outlet, I don't recall seeing another pair of HD660s since I bought them over a year ago. One might want to question why the Ambeo is everpresent before comitting to purchasing one :)

  • It's very wide (40"), heavy (40 pounds) and expensive ($2500).
    • Digital input requirements.
    • Soundbars are a very competitive market.
    • Plenty of decent audio equipment at that price range.
  • It might work better for TV or game special effects and less good for my music situation:
    • Low volume
    • Acoustic music (jazz, classical)
    • At near-field distances.
  • I have not found much Dolby Atmos or 5.1 content on Tidal.com.
    • I have Master subscription.
 
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mel

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My guess is approximately a 15:2 ratio, based on this picture. Generally speaking, not too dissimilar to my 13:5 ratio.

I am more interested in eliminating it from consideration, than finding the optimal ratio.

Soundbar_aufstellen_optimal.png

The Genelec layout, which fits awkwardly for my situation. Genelec offers all the audio functionality I could possibly hope for.
  • The Genelec 8030 speakers are designed for a distance of about 2m radius.
    • That is 4/5m of the width of my room.

index.php
 
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https://www.engadget.com/2019-07-23-sennheiser-ambeo-soundbar-review.html

Sennheiser recommends installing the speaker
  • in the center of a wall at least 39 inches (1 meter) from
    • the side walls or
    • ceiling.
  • You have to give this thing room to work, so if you can't do that, this probably isn't the soundbar for you.
There are plenty of Atmos-enabled soundbars out there that do a decent job at simulating surround sound.
  • Sony offers a few options with upward-firing speakers that will beam audio from the top to make things a bit more immersive.
    • Its "flagship" model is the HT-ST5000, which
      • comes with a subwoofer for $1,299.99.
      • The HT-ST500 also has handy sound modes to cater to what you're watching or listening to, virtual 7.1.2 surround sound and a range of connections that include Chromecast built-in and
        • Spotify Connect. It's also smaller and a heck of a lot lighter. For the same price as this Sony model,
      • LG has the SL10Y with a similar feature set,
        • though it's 5.1.2. The SL10Y does have Google Assistant built-in on top of Chromecast, so it can accept your voice commands directly.
        • Several companies make Dolby Atmos soundbars that simulate surround sound,
  • but the top-end options from Sony and LG should definitely be on your list to consider as Ambeo alternatives.
Sennheiser's Ambeo Soundbar is a beast. It's big and heavy, but it's also a powerful living room speaker with impressive 3D audio chops.
  • It needs room to do its thing and Dolby Atmos content to really shine.
    • You can get that from places like Netflix, if you're willing to pay extra
The Ambeo Soundbar isn't a rectangular box, either. It's a trapezoid. The sides angle outward from front to back, so it can accommodate the side-firing speakers. And while we're on the topic,
  • this beast houses a total of 13 drivers. More specifically,
    • six 4-inch long throw woofers,
    • five 1-inch tweeters and
    • two upward-firing 3.5-inch mid-range drivers. The system has a
  • frequency response of 30 Hz to 20 kHz and offers the equivalent of
  • 5.1.4 surround sound from a single unit. And that's a real perk of the Ambeo Soundbar: you get truly immersive audio without having to position a group of five (or more) speakers around your living room. Everything is in a single enclosure.
Connectivity is an area where the Ambeo Soundbar really shines. Sennheiser packed in everything here. For wired connections, there are
  • three HDMI inputs (v.2.0a),
  • one HDMI output (v.2.1 eARC),
  • an optical input and an
  • aux input (stereo RCA).
  • There's also a USB port for any service needs or updates and an
  • Ethernet jack for wired internet.
  • The soundbar offers a subwoofer pre-out (mono-RCA) in case you feel the need to add more low-end tone to the setup.
  • If you prefer wireless connectivity, the Ambeo Soundbar has Bluetooth and Chromecast, both handy for beaming audio from your phone. Around front, there's a microphone input for the included mic, which you use to calibrate the Ambeo Soundbar to your living room
  • The Smart Control app also allows you to tweak the EQ.
    • The four-band equalizer divides into Foundation, Low-Mid, Clarity and Brilliance.
    • I was pretty happy with the Movie preset (for TV as well) and the Sports mode, but the
    • Music option needed some fine-tuning to fit my sonic sensibilities.
    • I found that the Ambeo Soundbar didn't have enough bass for some genres --
      • mostly hip-hop, electronic and metal -- right out of the box,
      • even with the Music preset enabled.
      • I was able to coax a little more low end out of the unit by messing with the EQ.
      • This meant I got the appropriate low-end growl for Gojira's chugging guitar riffs and the synth-laden tones of Com Truise.
    • Inside the app, you can also choose between
      • Light,
      • Standard or
      • Boost levels for Ambeo on the EQ interface for each acoustic preset.
      • So, if you don't like how things sound, even with the presets, there's room for you to personalize everything.
    • When it comes to overall sound quality,
      • immersive audio is where the Ambeo Soundbar really shines.
      • There's a lot more dimensionality to the sound than I'm used to from my Sonos Playbar and Sub combo.
      • And you don't need Dolby Atmos content to notice the difference, though it certainly enhances the spatial quality.
      • The Ambeo Soundbar comes with what Sennheiser calls Upmix Technology,
        • which turns regular ol' 5.1 audio (Dolby Digital, DTS, etc.) into 3D sound.
        • The upmix is certainly an improvement over the norm, but the
        • processed result isn't quite as good as Atmos.
      • The Ambeo Soundbar supports a range of high-res audio formats in addition to
        • Dolby Atmos, including
        • MPEG-H and
        • DTS:X.
          • The latter also sounds better than upmixed 5.1, but
          • Atmos remains the gold standard on this device.
 
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mel

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https://www.techhive.com/article/3539990/sennheiser-ambeo-soundbar-review.html

If you want a true surround or immersive audio system, and you can spend this kind of money on it,
  • I recommend getting a set of speakers and an A/V receiver.
  • To stay close to a total cost of $2,500, for example, you can assemble a 5.1.2 speaker system from SVS consisting of two Prime Bookshelf speakers for the front left and right, a Prime Center, two Prime Satellites for the surrounds, two Prime Elevation speakers (reviewed here) for the overhead channels, and a PB-1000 subwoofer, all for about $1,900.
  • You also need a 7.2-channel Dolby Atmos-capable A/V receiver,
    • such as the Denon AVR-X1600X ($600), which provides twice as many HDMI inputs as the Ambeo Soundbar. Granted, this system is 5.1.2, not 5.1.4, but I didn’t really hear four overhead channels with the Ambeo anyway.

Finally, I listened to some music via Bluetooth from Tidal’s Master library. My selections included “Falling Slowly” by Josh Groban and Idina Menzel, from Groban’s album Bridges Live: Madison Square Garden; “Everything’s Right,” from Phish’s album Sigma Oasis; “My Blue Heaven,” sung by James Taylor on his album American Standard; and Wagner’s Siegfried Idyll, as recorded by the Philharmonia Orchestra under Guido Cantelli with horn soloist Dennis Brain, one of my favorite horn players of all time.

In all cases, Music mode sounded a bit thick with slightly muddy bass, while Movie mode sounded clearer, and Neutral mode was, well, neutral—cleaner and more transparent than the other modes. Once I settled on Neutral mode, the sound quality was excellent overall, with clear vocals, airy highs, clean mids, and well-balanced bass. When I turned off the Ambeo effect, the soundstage shrank dramatically, and the sound thinned out, so I turned it back on and left it there.

Or can it? That’s the goal Sennheiser set for itself with its Ambeo Soundbar. This high-end behemoth sits near the top of the soundbar price range and claims to reproduce a virtual 5.1.4 immersive soundfield—a claim that has some merit, though it never fooled me into thinking I was listening to an actual immersive multi-speaker system.

So, how does a single soundbar—even such a large one—simulate the effect of a 5.1.4 speaker system? In this case, it uses all those drivers and some serious DSP to direct the surround and overhead channels to the room’s walls and ceiling, where they are reflected toward the listening area. According to Sennheiser, the effect is best if the
  • walls and ceiling are no more than five meters (about 16 feet) from the soundbar;
    • otherwise, the reflected sound might be noticeably delayed.

The Ambeo Soundbar can decode a wide range of audio codecs, including virtually
  • all varieties of Dolby (including Dolby Atmos) and
  • DTS (including DTS:X and DTS 96/24).
  • Other supported codecs include DSD (the format used with SACD discs) and
  • MPEG-H, a relatively new codec intended for use with next-generation TV broadcasting via ATSC 3.0.
  • It can also upmix stereo and 5.1 content into a fully immersive soundfield.
If the audio is in one of the Dolby formats, the Ambeo Soundbar can utilize
  • Dolby Virtualizer, in which case the Ambeo 3D audio effect is disabled. It also offers
  • Dolby Dynamic Range Control (DRC) with three different settings (Auto, Normal, Heavy) and dialog normalization. If the audio is a
  • DTS bitstream, you can set DRC to any value from 0 to 100 percent and boost dialog up to 6dB.
  • These and most other controls are found in the Sennheiser Smart Control app (more in a moment).

I started my formal evaluation by playing the 5.1.4 test tones—pink noise, actually—from the Dolby Atmos demo Blu-ray. Of course, the front LCR channels came from where they were supposed to, but the surround and overhead channels were also in front of me. The surround channels were farther to the sides than the front LR channels, but they didn’t appear to come from the sides of the room. The overhead channels appeared to be coming from the upfiring speakers in the soundbar, not from the ceiling.

Of the musical selections on the demo disc, I especially like the Atmos mix of “Bailando” by Enrique Inglesias. As rendered by the Ambeo Soundbar, the soundstage was quite wide with some overhead high-frequency sounds, and the bass sounded great. Likewise, the soundstage on Cappella SF’s recording of “Dance,” from Invocation and Dance by David Conte, extended well beyond the soundbar’s physical cabinet with some high-frequency percussion overhead but not as far as the sides of the room next to me.

During the musical selections, I tried the different sound modes. The Music mode emphasized the bass more than the others and sounded a bit congested. Movie mode was richer than Neutral, and both were cleaner than Music mode. In addition, I tried listening with the Ambeo effect turned on and off. Turning it off greatly shrinks the soundstage and thins out the sound quite a bit.
 
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mel

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Why don't you ask Sennheiser? They will probably know their product the most compared to random people on the internet ;)

According to Sennheiser, the effect is best if the
  • walls and ceiling are no more than five meters (about 16 feet) from the soundbar;
    • otherwise, the reflected sound might be noticeably delayed.
Sennheiser recommends installing the speaker
  • in the center of a wall
  • at least 39 inches (1 meter) from
    • the side walls or
    • ceiling.
  • You have to give this thing room to work, so if you can't do that,
    • this probably isn't the soundbar for you.
 
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