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What measurements really matter?

solderdude

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It has been mentioned what matters.
1: Frequency response (at 44.1kHz)
2: noise level
3: added distortion (various types and reasons)
Add to that there can be different actual performance when using other gear/circumstances than Amirs test gear.
So they all really matter, most likely in the order above.
SINAD only covers 2 and 3 (partly under specific conditions)

It may not be wise to pick a DAC on 'the most important' spec only. When one insists SINAD is not the worst parameter to base it on.
No guarantees though. One should always look at the whole picture when using a selection process based on measured/verified technical performance only.
I would assume that those doing that also knows what functionality, looks, price, connectivity and supported formats it has.

Those that don't understand or don't care should either take some advice or look elsewhere for subjective impressions.
 
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barrows

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Yes, this question always runs into the same problem. The gray area. The zone of uncertainty.

We can give pretty good numbers so that if you meet them there is just not any reason to think they could sound different. Any less and you have edge cases of excellent hearing combined with odd situations where it might become an audible difference though it probably will not be audible except maybe 1% of the time. And this is my gripe about the SINAD chart. Even two pieces of gear with the same SINAD score might be identical in system A and discernible in system B. You can have a wee bit of pinkish noise with vanishing distortion at -90 db SINDAD or you can have distortion with noise so low it will never be heard.

Someone around hear suggested turning up your system as loud as you'll ever listen. With silence do you hear noise? Nope, then noise is good. If you have flat FR, then you more than likely are all set.

Indeed, the common figure we hear about is that humans are capable of hearing 120 dB of dynamic range. My initial post suggests that interested people might actually develop some direct, rather than just theoretical, knowledge of the dynamic range which is possible to achieve in their rooms, listening to speaker based systems. To Amir’s point, yes, I specifically referenced speaker based listening, as I personally find much more enjoyment from listening to loudspeakers in a well set up system (Although I do often listen to headphones, for testing purposes, and occasionally for pleasure, often when traveling). I am lucky to live on 3 acres, in rural area with little traffic at night, and the noise floor in my home on a windless night is quite low (I have measured this as well). My system exhibits no audible noise at the listening position when cranked way up to levels beyond comfortable lisrening (Purifi amp) with any of the DACs I have had here.
Of course recordings generally exhibit a noise floor higher than that of my system. Of course one has to be careful evaluating this with some DACs, as many mute their outputs with no signal present.
 

tomtoo

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When you are in the green region of DAC's here, i think you would need the hell of amp's and speakers and ears to hear a difference.
They are transparent, go for the look or the size of the volume knob if you like. But not for sounddifferences. If you use the headphoneamp look how the DAC performs in this department, thats much more importend. The DAC can perform good in sinad but delivers not enough power for you on the headphone u use. That would be a showstopper for me. Great clean signal but boring weak? Not good for me. But someone else could maybe like it couse the reached level is ok for that person?
 
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barrows

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If you use the headphoneamp look how the DAC performs in this department, thats much more importend

Umm, what??? While the headphone amp might be "more important" to you, I, for example do not care one bit about headphone playback, as I find headphone listening, while moderately enjoyable, to not even close to the experience of listening over loudspeakers. In fact, I woudl rather thta a DAC manufacturer not add a headphone amplifier to a DAC which I would purchase, and instead I would my money goes to making the DAC perform as well as possible for line out.
Different strokes, and that is OK, but I did premise the thread on listening over loudspeakers in a room environment.
 

tomtoo

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Umm, what??? While the headphone amp might be "more important" to you, I, for example do not care one bit about headphone playback, as I find headphone listening, while moderately enjoyable, to not even close to the experience of listening over loudspeakers. In fact, I woudl rather thta a DAC manufacturer not add a headphone amplifier to a DAC which I would purchase, and instead I would my money goes to making the DAC perform as well as possible for line out.
Different strokes, and that is OK, but I did premise the thread on listening over loudspeakers in a room environment.

Thats why i sayd "If you use it". If not used i wouldnt care about the phoneamp.
 

LTig

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In the digital world, by far the most important spec (in my near 40-year experienced opinion) is jitter. Converting the D to A is the 1st & most important step to an enjoyable analogue sounding playback, regardless of how the rest of it "measures".
Any references to scientific data which support your claim? See posting #21.
 

Wes

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I don't think a definitive answer to the question in the OP exists yet. You would need to vary one factor at a time in a controlled listening test and then use non-parametric statistics, as I think you'd have a subjective rank order to test.

But an easier question to test, and maybe a more relevant one for the consumer, is whether 2 DACs can be distinguished in a listening test. I would love to see a DACoff of the 2 mentioned: the Topping D-90, and Chord Mojo. Or any other two that differ widely in price or SINAD.
 

hawk01

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I don't think a definitive answer to the question in the OP exists yet. You would need to vary one factor at a time in a controlled listening test and then use non-parametric statistics, as I think you'd have a subjective rank order to test.

But an easier question to test, and maybe a more relevant one for the consumer, is whether 2 DACs can be distinguished in a listening test. I would love to see a DACoff of the 2 mentioned: the Topping D-90, and Chord Mojo. Or any other two that differ widely in price or SINAD.

while its been a year that this thread has somewhat fizzled out, it would be interesting to see DAC-off between the top ranked on blue and bottom ranked on green zone if only to discern anything audible between the two.
 

b4nt

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Keep in mind that we have two types of audience here: those that use speakers and those that use headphones. The latter allows blocking of the room noise, ability to play at insane SPL levels, and doesn't allow one channel's content to mask the distortions of the other.

I'm sitting in between. Using big bookshelf speakers sitting on my desk. Maybe closer to people using headsets, with no more room noise...

In any later precise DAC review, you added one shall care with that model, about amp balanced input impedance and matching, to get out the best. I think you recommanded a minimal input impedance for the amp, of above 47k or so for that DAC.

How may impedances matches of DAC/amp alter the signals, like in trebles or more? Might such parameters affect the sound where many DACs now announce very low distorsion levels?

I know one can use resistors attenuators to adapt to high gain amps, or for better/finer volume control. But this then feed the amp via high impedance, due to the added resistors. And that this can affect the bandwidth or roll off, due to capacitors, RC networks in the amp input stages.

Edit: I may be wrong here, such attenuators being to be designed for impedance matching (T, PI, or other models). But I've read missmatch and effets on roll off may occur.

I'm probably more observant of "noise" with headphones.

I recently had exactly the same concern with my bookshelf setup, noises, including very low level noises (EMI, RF, so on).
 
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