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What makes speakers "disappear " and can it be measured?

Putter

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My speakers (currently Kef Q150 but it has also applied to other speakers I've used) do a vanishing act. How? Simple, I tilt them upward. The sound is now disembodied from the speakers. It's an illusion of course, but so is stereo.
 
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Axo1989

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Audio Physic Virgo 2, that is it.
Stereophile, and I agree, when st pumas adviced.
«
The Virgos do look like loudspeakers. They have no grillecloths, so a pair of very conventional-looking tweeters and midrange drivers, music spewing from them, were staring this guy right in the punim, and he thought the sound was coming from the big black room dividers against the wall. Amazing. "Those weren't playing," I explained. "The ones staring you in the face were."

"Unbef***inglievable."

The Virgos flat-out disappeared. Better than other speakers that disappear? Better than the ProAc Response 2s I reviewed a few years ago, which also pull a vanishing act? I don't know. Different room, different equipment, different time. Better than other speakers reviewed on these pages for which disappearance is claimed? I can't say. No reviewer gets to hear it all.

Clearly, the Virgos disappeared, leaving one of the most credible three-dimensional soundstages I've ever experienced in any of my listening rooms over the years.
I read that, fortunately after becoming acquainted with those speakers (otherwise I'd doubt my impressions in discussions like these). It did match my impressions reasonably well, for what it's worth.

Always liked this interview with the guy who engineered them http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/HES/JGerhard.doc
Thanks for the link. I think both Gerhard and his successor Diestertich have quite a few interesting discussions.
 

Tim Link

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2 channel stereo is flawed, but it works surprisingly well and almost always sounds superior to me compared to a single speaker making all the music, even when I'm listening way off axis. To really optimize the stereo effect I feel you can't just sit stiff like a mannequin. You have to sit with your face up against a divider wall that mostly eliminates the crosstalk between your ears. That really sounds great to me but it's not an easy arrangement to live with. Another interesting arrangement is to separate the drivers out of their normal vertical stacks. Put the tweeters closer together straight ahead of you, the midrange drivers out at the normal stereo listening triangle, and the woofers completely out to the left and right sides. I don't know exactly what it is about that arrangement that does some magic but I've heard it sound very compelling the couple of times I've tried it. It's not better in every way but something about the tale-tell artificiality of two channel stereo is removed at the cost of some coherency.
 

IPunchCholla

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I demoed IK-Multimedia’s ARC 3 software primarily to test it as an alternative to manually doing the same with REW.

I have no easy way to AB this, so take what cookies with a grain of salt.

With ARC you do measurements at 7 locations at 3 different levels, and it creates a flat, balanced, and phased profile for that location.

When I’m at my desk. I’m sitting almost between my stereo speakers, about 3 feet from each. My second location is about 9 feet from the speakers. In both situations, the speakers are heavily shifted to the left in the room. For the second situation the listening position is also asymmetrically left with regards to the speakers and is also close to the left wall

With ARC the stereo imaging is noticeably better. Significantly so. In ARC you can also alter the phasing between natural and linear. Unfortunately you can’t turn off the phasing from overall correction.

Playing with all of the settings has let me prioritize exactly what creates the stereo effect for me (subjectively speaking).

Frequencyresponse/Balance. I was manually balancing before. Arc does much better and does it in a frequency dependent way. Sitting at my desk, vocals now usually sound like they are in front of me. And there is considerably better sound stage overall. It also creates a flatter response than I was able to get with REW.

Phase does seem to play a role. Which surprised me given the size of my room and the amount of asymmetrical reflections that must be occurring at the listening position. I can hear (I think) a tiny difference between natural and linear settings.

Anyway. I liked the results from ARC enough that I bought it.
 

lherrm

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2 channel stereo is flawed, but it works surprisingly well and almost always sounds superior to me compared to a single speaker making all the music, even when I'm listening way off axis. To really optimize the stereo effect I feel you can't just sit stiff like a mannequin. You have to sit with your face up against a divider wall that mostly eliminates the crosstalk between your ears. That really sounds great to me but it's not an easy arrangement to live with. Another interesting arrangement is to separate the drivers out of their normal vertical stacks. Put the tweeters closer together straight ahead of you, the midrange drivers out at the normal stereo listening triangle, and the woofers completely out to the left and right sides. I don't know exactly what it is about that arrangement that does some magic but I've heard it sound very compelling the couple of times I've tried it. It's not better in every way but something about the tale-tell artificiality of two channel stereo is removed at the cost of some coherency.
You might be interested in BACCH4MAC.
There are threads about it :


 

eddy555

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if listening nearfield then minus 3-5 db high shelving from 1.5khz-2khz can help with that.
 

AwesomeSauce2015

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What makes speakers disappear?
Thieves, they can be measured. You can measure size, weight, and the amount of thieves in a given space.
Also paint. You could paint the speakers in colors that blend with your room. That color can then be measured with specialized equipment.
Lastly, a false wall of acoustically transparent material. I would hope that you would measure the dimensions of said wall, you could also measure the color and weight of the wall.

So yes, what makes speakers "disappear" can be measured.

As a note; I find that well set up speakers will usually disappear, but narrower directivity (horns / waveguides) will also help (probably due to fewer reflections, and reduced diffraction).
 

fineMen

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Downmixing the vocal-heavy center channel from normal 5.1 or 7.1 mch tracks to a plain LR stereo phantom center -- some people like me do not have a center speaker! -- you may notice some reduction in volume centered around 2 kHz.
View attachment 195110
-6 dB offset and 0.27 ms delay was applied to either channel as well as a +3dB level adjustment to both LR. The result from both were rms averaged together as shown in Trace #10

This simulates the interference from the crosstalk between the two ears which individually are not centered perfectly.
The sim isn't valid
- doesn't account for a rotation of the head
- doesn't account for the Head Related Transfer Function (HRTF)
- doesn't consider a human, who might sit a bit off-center to begin with

Stereo, is it an ideology that doesn't account for humans?
 

mansr

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I'm getting the impression that some of you guys don't understand how stereo recording and reproduction actually works.
 

Tim Link

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You might be interested in BACCH4MAC.
There are threads about it :


I am interested in that but I'm not going to purchase it. It's kind of expensive for me, and as good as eliminating stereo crosstalk sounds it's not important enough for me to add inconvenience and expense. I've tried some digital crosstalk elimination that really works, and I've also used the Polk system that has two sets of stereo drivers. It really works too, and there's no signal processing delays! In the end I'm happy with the standard stereo presentation. The crosstalk degradation seems to be something which my brain can readily adapt to, allowing me to just jump back into enjoying the music even while noting that the amazing spacial presentation has been diminished.
 

ernestcarl

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This simulates the interference from the crosstalk between the two ears which individually are not centered perfectly.
The sim isn't valid
- doesn't account for a rotation of the head
- doesn't account for the Head Related Transfer Function (HRTF)
- doesn't consider a human, who might sit a bit off-center to begin with

Stereo, is it an ideology that doesn't account for humans?

Uh, It's a crude simulation -- *on-axis and not accounting off-axis and many more complex movements of the head and body. I thought that part was kind of obvious.
 

fineMen

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Uh, It's a crude simulation -- *on-axis and not accounting off-axis and many more complex movements of the head and body. I thought that part was kind of obvious.

Sure, but that is the problem with down-mixing, or better, with mixing in general. In my book it is in-human to expect the listener to sit his head fixed at a certain position all the time. But if she moves, that particular equalisation You gave as an example becomes wrong in that it even worsens things. The same applies to any mix, may it be for still common stereo alone.

The only way out of this inherent mishap with the design of the stereo technology is to allow for tolerances with seating position, orientation of the two ears, ..., room acoustics and more.

The stereo needs the listener to give some input. It is work left to be done on the consumer side! The listener has to actively ignore cues that would due to the intelligence of human's hearing capability, regularly allow for alternative interpretations of the physical sound field.

Actively identify the cues which direct the senses to the intended stereo panorama, actively (!) ignore any other spatial cues that make the speaker identifiable as individual sound sources.

Best means to do so is to listen to the music rather than to concentrate, while listening "critically", on the "excellence" of the very stereo "system".

People with an "audiophile" attempt act paradoxically. They need the speakers to be stolen in order to make them disappear (see somebody else above, thank You :D
 

ernestcarl

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@fineMen

I don't think I get what you are objecting to exactly... so no downmixing or alternative DSP tricks?


The "pano phase shuffler" (with some additional custom equalization added: right now it's +1dB center, left & right at 1.9kHz) is not something I normally enable for music. It's one DSP preset that I can quickly switch on at the click of a button when I find the center vocals lacking in clarity -- primarily this may occur in some multi-channel encoded TV shows and movies. Whether turned on or off the effect actually is subtle, but an improvement nonetheless at times when it's needed. With such media content, vocals are almost always mixed to the center channel -- I do not have a center channel. Now, I only use this DSP preset at the MLP -- could be the center, left, or right seats of my couch by loading stored DSP config settings that mainly adjust the time and level difference (and few PEQs) in order to center vocals to the screen and improve the overall balance (again, for MCH content). Other users have proposed different phase curves in this thread: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/fixing-the-stereo-phantom-center.277519/

I use the one already available in rePhase since it is very convenient and quite conservative in its phase manipulation.

If you don't like this particular DSP technique... then, okay. I don't really mind what you specifically believe is more appropriate. It just happens to work rather well for me in the aforementioned cases.
 

fineMen

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@fineMen

I don't think I get what you are objecting to exactly... so no downmixing or alternative DSP tricks?

The technique You use only applies, if You position Your head dead center in the equal-sided stereo triangle. Nobody does that, though. Not even the studio/sound-engineer does it. You might be able to calculate (by trigonometry and some phase wizardry) the consequences of asymmetrical ears.

I affirm, that stereo (which makes the "speakers disappear" for most, if I get the terminology right) relaxes the experience, but only so, if You keep listening relaxed. If one focuses too much on the stereo effect, it becomes cumbersome. Theoretically and practically and logically.
 

IPunchCholla

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The effects of stereo asymmetry are well understood (see O’Toole). The illusion of stereo isn’t a binary singular fixed point but essentially moves with the viewer (as demonstrated by perceptions of delay). If I am to the right of the sweet spot, the speakers don’t instantly appear, rather the sound stage simply appears to shift to the right until your angle to the right speaker becomes oblique, at which point it shifts to the left.

Of course if you move fairly far to the right it would collapse down to a highly diffused mono (if you’re indoors).

BTW, there is software that will EQ, phase align, and balance your speakers, in order to stretch the sweet spot over an area of you choosing by measuring the acoustic response of your room and the direct contribution of your speakers.

But perhaps I am misunderstanding your point.
 

fineMen

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The effects of stereo asymmetry are well understood (see O’Toole). The illusion of stereo isn’t a binary singular fixed point but ...

O/k, me thinks this is a bit of a cultural thing. I give not too much on exactness with stereo. I love music. Stereo is just the technique to transmit the very content. If there is only one, I would wonder, really. Music Concrete as from Frank Zappa's early years (We're Only In It For The Money") or Pierre Henry's "Ceremony" - nobody of course.

The perfection You insinuate isn't the real thing. Audiophiles are just plain paradox, driving a Formular One race car in NY city traffic - "It's perfect!". My pleasure to be out of that funky suck-hole in the skies.

I argue You never understood the purpose of the industry. You may want to read Toole between the lines ;)
 

fineMen

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... argue ... ;)
Just the un-real, notice the "un-" here, of the arangement of the "Can't Find My Way Home" from Blind Faith (in case You are allowed to listen despite the cover.). Any "stereo" concerns here? It just works, one meter besides the center line. For heavens sake, dare to invest some intellect, combine impressions!

If You long for a full orchestra presented live-like in Your stereo triangle, good luck, Your cup of tea.
 

IPunchCholla

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Just the un-real, notice the "un-" here, of the arangement of the "Can't Find My Way Home" from Blind Faith (in case You are allowed to listen despite the cover.). Any "stereo" concerns here? It just works, one meter besides the center line. For heavens sake, dare to invest some intellect, combine impressions!

If You long for a full orchestra presented live-like in Your stereo triangle, good luck, Your cup of tea.
Yep. I’m definitely not understanding the point you’re trying to make.
 

avanti1960

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Some are probably better than others, especially speakers that are more driver coherent, e.g. " speaking with one voice".
In my experience though speaker positioning can make most any speaker disappear- distances from room boundaries, distances to nearby screens and large surfaces, distance between speakers, toe in angle and listening position distance are all critical.
Positioning layout geometry is 90% of the equation. Most rooms are not set up for it- mainly big WAF downer to do it right.
 

antennaguru

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Some are probably better than others, especially speakers that are more driver coherent, e.g. " speaking with one voice".
In my experience though speaker positioning can make most any speaker disappear- distances from room boundaries, distances to nearby screens and large surfaces, distance between speakers, toe in angle and listening position distance are all critical.
Positioning layout geometry is 90% of the equation. Most rooms are not set up for it- mainly big WAF downer to do it right.
OTOH some of us have dedicated rooms for our 2 channel audio systems, with no video monitor/screen for reflections.diffractions...
 
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