What makes speakers "disappear " and can it be measured?

[Holmz]

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I think you would be an interesting person to talk to about these things, but for some reason have an adverse reaction to how you present your topics in writing. I do believe I have fundamentally different beliefs than you. For example, I think we would likely disagree about the relationship of mind/brain/body and therefore likely have different readings of imagination, fantasy, subjective (particularly the later as I definitely read that word within a post-structural framework modified via contemporary criticism), which makes this type of communication (forum based) difficult.

"I think that the latter is the overwhelming obstacle in understanding what the question for "disappearing speakers" is. What does it mean to begin with? Some hifi enhthusiasts still don't accept the very fact, that 'stereo' needs *active* imagination, it is not the least any sort of virtual reality. To activate imagination needs good music ... so I'm happy that my speakers 'disappear' every time I listen to a good program of my choice. But I have enough brains (?) to switch any time to listening to the speakers left/right.
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There is probably something in ^here^.
So what is reality? In the context of suspending reality?

may i ask what those two things mean? it sounds very simple if i had an EE degree!

The first is that the speakers produce sound like they come from a point.
One could use a flat planner speaker, which has a focus at infinity, or some curved speaker which had a focus somewhat behind the speaker.

The minimum phase has no pre-ringing, so I don’t think it is a requirement either.

i'm sure this has been covered ad nauseum over the 39 pages of responses; but for me it seems like just a matter of triangulating the speakers correctly. if i point them in a little and sit at the apex of the triangle formed by the firing of the speakers, the sound stage expands in all directions and i just hear music with no directionality.

The toe is probably not as important as away from walls.
Just drive down a road with the window down. If the curbs are square, then you can hear every driveway and also hear how close you are to the curb to an extent.

Blind people are generally not going head first into walls.
Try walking up a driveway while whistling or making clinking sounds with one’s eyes shut - one can generally know when to start reaching out for the wall.

This is really pretty good.

To all: Can you locate your speakers easily or could it be an imagination that it is so?

^No^

I can go a little crazy about that myself because the worst thing I know is to be able to locate the speakers. But whether or how much this speaker localization coupled with possible imagining is, I don't know. Besides, most of the time it's not something I really think about because then I wouldn't be able to enjoy listening to the music. But when it comes to critical listening, well....it gets a little tricky, so to speak.

I think it is highly coupled.
And getting the early reflections delayed helps a lot (IMO).

 

[Jack B]

Have I misread the comments in this thread so far, or are they, instead of homing in on a majority consensus view on the cause, backed up with some evidence, in fact just expanding like a brain dump of ideas, soon to include the known and imaginary universe?

Yes, they are.

 

[Blake Klondike]

Yes, they are.

Why, you got something else planned? We're going to get around to it anyway!

 

[Jack B]

I’ve built a reputation of apparently liking things louder than most. For me, it adds to the perception of realism. It’s a scale issue. I find that the performance feels less real when the dynamics and output aren’t there.

when I moved to designing rooms professionally I began strongly advocating for building the spaces to be quieter. While we can hear down into the noise floor, it doesn’t change the fact that if the noise floor is much lower then we can listen at a quieter level and still resolve those fine details. I also find it relaxing sometimes to have a very quiet place to retreat to.

in any case, meeting the dynamic needs of modern movies has become more challenging. I began selling a line of speakers, Perlisten, because it’s one of the few that can really get to the levels needed to achieve reference level output in larger rooms. Houses and rooms are getting bigger. While I haven’t designed residential home listening rooms and theaters for decades, at least In the last decade I have found a shift in the size of rooms I am working with. Where 1500 to 3000 cubic feet was quite common. This year I have designed spaces that were 5500, 7500, 13,000, even a 24,000 cubic foot space. People are building some crazy houses! Such large volumes require larger speakers and scaling speakers often comes with challenges and compromises.

You Can imagine in such commercial scale spaces i also can’t get away with what typically works in normal residential spaces.

Matthew, thanks for your comments and your contributions to the body of knowledge. While I am not your target audience (under 1500 cu. ft., almost 78 y.o.), I have taken pains to ensure that dynamic range compression is unlikely in my situation and am glad that you are addressing this issue. Please carry on!

 

[Brent71]

Point source + minimum phase system = invisible speakers

Pretty much describes Dunlavy speakers.

 

[dualazmak]

Maybe I have previously shared the followings on this thread, please allow me again here; I have these posts on my project thread, all based on my own actual experiments, measurements, subjective listening tests, quasi-ABX-type comparative listening, etc.

- Perfect (0.1 msec precision) time alignment of all the SP drivers greatly contributes to amazing disappearance of SPs, tightness and cleanliness of the sound, and superior 3D sound stage: #520

- Not only the precision (0.1 msec level) time alignment over all the SP drivers but also SP facing directions and sound-deadening space behind the SPs plus behind our listening position would be critically important for effective (perfect?) disappearance of speakers: #687

- A new series of audio experiments on reflective wide-3D dispersion of super-tweeter sound using random-surface hard-heavy material: Part-4_Provisional conclusion to use Case-2 reverse reflective dispersion setting in default daily music listening: #929


- The latest system setup of my DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active audio rig, including updated startup/ignition sequences and shutdown sequences: as of June 26, 2024: #931

- The latest Fq-SPL (re-confirmation) of multiple amplifiers SP high-level output signals and that of room air sound at listening position: all measured by “FFT averaging of recorded cumulative DSP-processed flat white noise” (as of June 8, 2025): #1,009

 

[Jack B]

Why, you got something else planned? We're going to get around to it anyway!

Getting around to what, a brain dump of ideas, soon to include the known and imaginary universe? Please elaborate.