What makes speakers "disappear " and can it be measured?

[Sal1950]

f one has a pair of bookshelf speakers available it is pretty easy to setup a temporary system to experience 'the wall' version of this. Set them up very nearfield (a foot or two away) and use a pillow or couch cushion as the wall.

Over the years I've heard a number of crosstalk canceling ideas including latest BACCH at one of the last shows I went to. They all had some interesting effects, some more-so than others. One of the most interesting was the related QSound encoding done on many recordings. Roger Waters - Amused To Death CD can deliver an extremely spooky soundstage on a 2ch system that already is a great imaging one.
OTOH I also have a great surround sound system here and own that same album in it's BluRay James Guthrie 5.1 remix that totally blows that QSound
mastered mix out of the water for immersive sound and detail quality.
My personal feeling is to save the time, money, and energy to get any crosstalk canceling system running and just start working towards a 5ch surround rig as soon as possible..
YMMV

 

[sfogg]

OTOH I also have a great surround sound system here and own that same album in it's BluRay James Guthrie 5.1 remix that totally blows that QSound
mastered mix out of the water for immersive sound and detail quality.
My personal feeling is to save the time, money, and energy to get any crosstalk canceling system running and just start working towards a 5ch surround rig as soon as possible..
YMMV

I agree.

I have been listening to music exclusively in surround sound for around 27ish years. Most of that in a 7 channel system, literally this week it became a 17 channel system not including the subs.

 

[gvl]

Uh uhn, And horns are shouty, bright, hard and agresive sounding, Everyone knows that.

That was not much of an issue in my case, but achieving that enveloping stereo effect proved to be difficult, even compared to objectively worse speakers such as JBL L100, in the same room.

 

[pdjmwj]

This one is wonderful.
Not many can beat the Audio Physic Virgo II , Even today
https://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-physic-virgo-loudspeaker-measurements-part-3

I absolutely agree. I've heard this speaker many times and it's disappearing act is amazing.

 

[Brent71]

That would be a terible waste of good speakers.
Use them in the rear for the beginnings of a multich music system that could hurt someone.

I'd never do that, just thought it was a funny idea. I also have a pair of SC-IV and SC-III, along with a SC-IIC.C center. I could build a killer surround system if I had the space and all of the additional components needed.

 

[Axo1989]

... I think that the latter is the overwhelming obstacle in understanding what the question for "disappearing speakers" is. What does it mean to begin with? Some hifi enhthusiasts still don't accept the very fact, that 'stereo' needs *active* imagination, it is not the least any sort of virtual reality. To activate imagination needs good music ... so I'm happy that my speakers 'disappear' every time I listen to a good program of my choice. But I have enough brains (?) to switch any time to listening to the speakers left/right.

(As you are all into science, did anyone try to kind of 'destroy' the stereo effect by just concentrating on something else?)

That isn't my experience exactly. I think of it more like the many examples in the optical illusions thread here. While responses to specific visual illusions vary from person to person, those that work for me don't require 'active imagination'. To the contrary, they are hard to 'un-see'.

Sticking with a sonic example, say I'm half-watching the X-Files episode Chinga on an iPad just now while doing some particularly tedious data entry on a desktop computer. Around 33 minutes in we have a climactic scene with baying dogs as a portent of doom. The iPad is on the desk in front of me. The dogs are waaay over to the right, and pretty much outside my window. It's a spatial audio illusion of course (and a new iPad Pro hides some fairly sophisticated sonic engineering, as does the media in question).

There are no outside speakers, much less baying dogs. I don't even need 'good music' or focused listening. It doesn't matter where I focus my 'enough brains' or what I concentrate on, those dogs won't come inside and sit under my desk. Naughty dogs !!

 

[Heinrich]

...the many examples in the optical illusions thread here. While responses to specific visual illusions vary from person to person, those that work for me don't require 'active imagination'. ...

Won't turn it against you because I get humor, but that's a classical 'what about'. I won't discuss the differences between especially 'stereo' and the vast field of sensoric illusions still. 'Stereo' is no illusion, it is about active interpretation, deliberately making up a fantasy. Different things.

 

[Axo1989]

Won't turn it against you because I get humor, but that's a classical 'what about'. I won't discuss the differences between especially 'stereo' and the vast field of sensoric illusions still. 'Stereo' is no illusion, it is about active interpretation, deliberately making up a fantasy. Different things.

Yes. But that's why my first paragraph is simile, and my second sticks to a sonic example. I was specifically thinking of your idea of deliberate construction. How would you apply that to my example (where certain aspects of deliberation appear absent)?

 

[beagleman]

Won't turn it against you because I get humor, but that's a classical 'what about'. I won't discuss the differences between especially 'stereo' and the vast field of sensoric illusions still. 'Stereo' is no illusion, it is about active interpretation, deliberately making up a fantasy. Different things.

Oddly, I know people that claim to have NO IDEA what a soundstage is nor think they hear one......at all???

I know a couple guys, that think stereo is just double the speakers, so you can hear it from both corners of the room. They had no ideal it creates a soundstage and that the left and right are distinct signals.

 

[Heinrich]

Yes. But that's why my first paragraph is simile, and my second sticks to a sonic example. I was specifically thinking of your idea of deliberate construction. How would you apply that to my example (where certain aspects of deliberation appear absent)?

O/k, 'said to come back to sonic, but then it was about a video clip, so I stopped reading. But I take your caveat, a single event can trick the ears, which is pretty much an illusion.

Oddly, I know people that claim to have NO IDEA what a soundstage is ...

Of course I wasn't talking about those. But, again, that's what 'stereo' is supposed to be, a more complex mental picture of a situation, not just added single events. In this context it may be instructive to listen to the early years of 'stereo' when even musicians tried to put some meaning into the then new, so called 'stereo' effect. Sun Ra comes to my mind. That free jazz big band did a lot of experimentation, while the results still convince (me). I like the simplistic, yet sensible design.

Coming back to the initial question on what disappears. For me personally the imagination overrules any technical aspect of the speakers once these are of halfway decent quality. Or conversely, there is no special quality of the speakers that make them disappear, it's my subjective attitude in just listening. And so: that's why that 'spice' cannot be measured ;-)

 

[Axo1989]

O/k, 'said to come back to sonic, but then it was about a video clip, so I stopped reading. But I take your caveat, a single event can trick the ears, which is pretty much an illusion.

I don't think it's only a single event. Given correct assembly/production of the recorded material and a well-engineered reproduction system, we can do this throughout the recording/reproduction and related listening period.

 

[Heinrich]

I don't think it's only a single event. Given correct assembly/production of the recorded material and a well-engineered reproduction system, we can do this throughout the recording/reproduction and related listening period.

In my individual experience the 'stereo' is instable. "Well-engineered' as you put it, involves the listener. There are problems.

 

[IPunchCholla]

In my individual experience the 'stereo' is instable. "Well-engineered' as you put it, involves the listener. There are problems.

What exactly is the transition from your first sentence to your second and last? The first is a description of your personal experience. Fair enough. I believe it. But then you go on to make a claim of fact based on your individual experience. Ok. But why should we expand the issue past your experience? What if you are an anomaly. I certainly wouldn’t describe my experience of stereo as unstable. It seems very stable within any given song. Finally, what are the problems? What’s the point of staying there are problems without identifying them?

 

[MAB]

What exactly is the transition from your first sentence to your second and last? The first is a description of your personal experience. Fair enough. I believe it. But then you go on to make a claim of fact based on your individual experience. Ok. But why should we expand the issue past your experience? What if you are an anomaly. I certainly wouldn’t describe my experience of stereo as unstable. It seems very stable within any given song. Finally, what are the problems? What’s the point of staying there are problems without identifying them?

He always speaks in riddles, not information, just like FineMen, who preceded him, as if cloned.

 

[Heinrich]

What exactly is the transition from your first sentence to your second and last? The first is a description of your personal experience. Fair enough. I believe it. But then you go on to make a claim of fact based on your individual experience. Ok. But why should we expand the issue past your experience? What if you are an anomaly. I certainly wouldn’t describe my experience of stereo as unstable. It seems very stable within any given song. Finally, what are the problems? What’s the point of staying there are problems without identifying them?

He always speaks in riddles, not information, just like FineMen, who preceded him, as if cloned.

I really don't get what you don't get.

I said:

In my individual experience the 'stereo' is instable. "Well-engineered' as you put it, involves the listener. There are problems.

First, is it instable? Who would deny that the personal observation reflects a matter of fact - the literature is full of it ... it's a triviality.
Second, 'stereo' needs the listener to follow rules, which is by definition an involvement. Deny that?
Third, no problem you think - so what are you talking about asking for the 'spice' that makes speakers disappear (out of focus)?

I'm perplexed - my intention was to mildly hint to an often forgotten element in the equation, namely that one cannot expect the perfect 'stereo' experience without personal engagement. You come along with personal accusations that make no sense at all. Who are you?

 

[Heinrich]

I don't think it's only a single event. Given correct assembly/production of the recorded material and a well-engineered reproduction system, we can do this throughout the recording/reproduction and related listening period.

See my post above - I don't think that I got the topic and audience just right.

 

[MAB]

I really don't get what you don't get.

I said:

First, is it instable? Who would deny that the personal observation reflects a matter of fact - the literature is full of it ... it's a triviality.
Second, 'stereo' needs the listener to follow rules, which is by definition an involvement. Deny that?
Third, no problem you think - so what are you talking about asking for the 'spice' that makes speakers disappear (out of focus)?

I'm perplexed - my intention was to mildly hint to an often forgotten element in the equation, namely that one cannot expect the perfect 'stereo' experience without personal engagement. You come along with personal accusations that make no sense at all. Who are you?

We both make no sense.

Just say things simply.

 

[Heinrich]

We both make no sense.

Just say things simply.

I said, the listener is asked to follow rules. Sit exactly in the middle etc, and you don't get the connection to an active listening style that asks for imagination? To make the speakers 'disappear'? What that would be about is layed out in my post #734. Just a suggestion, as I'm not the least responsible for your pleasure with the system you sport.

 

[MAB]

I said, the listener is asked to follow rules. Sit exactly in the middle etc, and you don't get the connection to an active listening style that asks for imagination? To make the speakers 'disappear'? What that would be about is layed out in my post #734. Just a suggestion, as I'm not the least responsible for your pleasure with the system you sport.

You speak in riddles. Vague references.
So, I respond with a riddle for you too, and you got confused.

Just be clear, and it's not like post 734 explains your riddle.

So you know, I entirely agree with your point about imagination, I am just unable to follow the riddles and the missing context.

 

[Thomas_A]

It has to be repeated: Most speakers are quite easily "detected" in a stereo setup. Factors that reduce this is absence of resonances, absence of distortion and a even dispersion. Also cues that reveal distance to a sound source such as floor bounce, other early reflections, SPL and treble intensity are important. Lastl but not least, the the quality of the recording itself.

No riddles.