What makes speakers "disappear " and can it be measured?

[Brent71]

Hopefully this explains it well. I'm using horn speakers in the corners. They're pretty directional so I'm not treating the first reflections directly adjacent to a speaker. But there is a panel right next to each speaker that is actually treating the reflection caused by the speaker on the other side of the room. The two panels flanking the chair to catch the rear reflections seem to be most effective.

I just set it back up and was perplexed that it didn't seem to be working. Turns out I had the flanking panels too close, to me, so they were missing the actual reflection path to my head.

Another thing I forgot to do that turns out to be important is catch the ceiling reflections too. I put little absorber hoods above my tweeters and that seems to make more imaging magic happen.

View attachment 421724

What are your panels made of? I built some 2' x 4' x 4" panels using 2" thick Owens-Corning 703 insulation boards and they do a nice job of taming first reflections.

I've always wondered what would happen if you put a panel between the speakers turned 90-degrees so it sort of acts like a divider between the speakers; it would surely help with inter-aural crosstalk, but it would look odd as hell.

 

[Thomas_A]

Hopefully this explains it well. I'm using horn speakers in the corners. They're pretty directional so I'm not treating the first reflections directly adjacent to a speaker. But there is a panel right next to each speaker that is actually treating the reflection caused by the speaker on the other side of the room. The two panels flanking the chair to catch the rear reflections seem to be most effective.

I just set it back up and was perplexed that it didn't seem to be working. Turns out I had the flanking panels too close, to me, so they were missing the actual reflection path to my head.

Another thing I forgot to do that turns out to be important is catch the ceiling reflections too. I put little absorber hoods above my tweeters and that seems to make more imaging magic happen.

View attachment 421724

One can also make "gill panels" where primary reflections are blocked, later room reflections bounce on these->LP, making the room "wider". In swedish, but picture should explain:

faktiskt.io • Visa tråd - Gälkalkylator

 

[Andysu]

the sound disappears behind the screen with my JBL professional cinema here its like flashback five screen wide at the CIC Empire Leicester Square with 70mm six track Dolby Stereo SR THX/TAP on dvd

five screen wide bass cabs
five screen wide HF horns

C mono 01 single screen channel
C mono three screen customised
C mono five screen customised
LCR format 4 42 43
L Lc C Rc R five screen wide

plus a lot more besides that

 

[teashea]

It is an interesting issue. For me there is a fundamental difference between studio monitors and pleasure listening speakers.

When I listen to monitors in my studio, my expectations are quire different than when I listen to my hi fi systems.

I expect that my hi fi speakers will color the sound. I expect that my studio monitors will not (seven pairs of Neumann monitors).

 

[Tim Link]

One can also make "gill panels" where primary reflections are blocked, later room reflections bounce on these->LP, making the room "wider". In swedish, but picture should explain:

faktiskt.io • Visa tråd - Gälkalkylator

So they're called gill absorbers. I didn't know that but I've been thinking about this sort of thing, and obviously I've made some simple ones. Like it says on that web site, they have to be done right to be really good. My panels are absorptive on the back side so these are exactly what they're talking about, and they do keep the room more lively than just having broad band absorption along the walls.

 

[Thomas_A]

So they're called gill absorbers. I didn't know that but I've been thinking about this sort of thing, and obviously I've made some simple ones. Like it says on that web site, they have to be done right to be really good. My panels are absorptive on the back side so these are exactly what they're talking about, and they do keep the room more lively than just having broad band absorption along the walls.

Yes they are supposed to stop early reflections without damping. Not sure what they should be called; in the book of Philip Newells ”Recording Studio Design" they are called sawtooth absorbers.

 

[Tim Link]

Yes they are supposed to stop early reflections without damping. Not sure what they should be called; in the book of Philip Newells ”Recording Studio Design" they are called sawtooth absorbers.

In my setup I'm kind of using them backwards, not absorbing early reflections but redirecting them back toward the speaker. My room is set up along the long wall right now so that I think calls for a different approach. When set up along the narrow wall I used just one set of "gills" at the early reflection points, angled as they have them, and the results were perceptually good.

 

[Pearljam5000]

PS Audio's explanation

 

[Count Arthur]

PS Audio's explanation

I can't be arsed, can we have a summary.

 

[Pearljam5000]

I can't be arsed, can we have a summary.

My English is not good enough for it
Maybe someone else would kindly do it

 

[fragzone]

It is an interesting issue. For me there is a fundamental difference between studio monitors and pleasure listening speakers.

When I listen to monitors in my studio, my expectations are quire different than when I listen to my hi fi systems.

I expect that my hi fi speakers will color the sound. I expect that my studio monitors will not (seven pairs of Neumann monitors).

That opinion is pretty much the antithesis of this website.

The opinion espoused most often here is that the distinction between hifi and studio monitors is mostly marketing malarkey. A coloured speaker is a coloured speaker and is therefore seen as non-neutral and detrimental to the sound.

 

[Holmz]

That opinion is pretty much the antithesis of this website.

The opinion espoused most often here is that the distinction between hifi and studio monitors is mostly marketing malarkey. A coloured speaker is a coloured speaker and is therefore seen as non-neutral and detrimental to the sound.

There are a ton of things that factor in which are not “coloration”, like time domain performance, compression, radiation pattern, etc. etc. etc.

Boiling it down to frequency response, I suppose makes sense, as that is what people can most easily measure, But there is potentionally a whole lot more to consider.

 

[Petrushka]

There are a ton of things that factor in which are not “coloration”, like time domain performance, compression, radiation pattern, etc. etc. etc.

Boiling it down to frequency response, I suppose makes sense, as that is what people can most easily measure, But there is potentionally a whole lot more to consider.

Those things that are not coloration result in frequency response deviation in actual rooms.

 

[Holmz]

Those things that are not coloration result in frequency response deviation in actual rooms.

One can have 2, 3 or N speakers that all have the same frequency response.
And they can sound different to each other, because they are different… and because there is more to a speaker than frequency response.

 

[Ktacos]

It is an interesting issue. For me there is a fundamental difference between studio monitors and pleasure listening speakers.

When I listen to monitors in my studio, my expectations are quire different than when I listen to my hi fi systems.

I expect that my hi fi speakers will color the sound. I expect that my studio monitors will not (seven pairs of Neumann monitors).

That's how my setups used to be but over time everything has just drifted towards monitor levels of neutrality as it's the only thing that sounds right to me anymore. Really bugged me when I'd mix a tune, bring it into the living room and it'd sound totally different so I just went with monitors in there as well.

 

[teashea]

That's how my setups used to be but over time everything has just drifted towards monitor levels of neutrality as it's the only thing that sounds right to me anymore. Really bugged me when I'd mix a tune, bring it into the living room and it'd sound totally different so I just went with monitors in there as well.

I can understand that. I have thought that Neumann KH420's with their dedicated subs would be quite interesting for pleasure listening.

 

[Tim Link]

I would think that any good studio monitors should make for enjoyable consumer listening if set up appropriately in a listening room. If someone wants some kind of coloration, there's always EQ. I've head JBL 308Ps setup for recreational listening in a well treated room. I thought that was very pleasant sounding. The owner of that system liked to play with EQ,and had the bass boosted considerably. The room was really under control so it was fine with me, at least for the kind of music he was listening to.

 

[teashea]

I would think that any good studio monitors should make for enjoyable consumer listening if set up appropriately in a listening room. If someone wants some kind of coloration, there's always EQ. I've head JBL 308Ps setup for recreational listening in a well treated room. I thought that was very pleasant sounding. The owner of that system liked to play with EQ,and had the bass boosted considerably. The room was really under control so it was fine with me, at least for the kind of music he was listening to.

Not necessarily. For example, most Neumann monitors are designed for nearfield listening and not recommended for farfield. The 420's are the exception.

I have tried my KH 150's, KH 310's and KH 120 II's at longer than nearfield distances and I would never use them in that mode.