What makes speakers "disappear " and can it be measured?

[Kvalsvoll]

Nil intermodulation because of 12" bass up to 200Hz, 12" midrange up to 1kHz and an exceptionally well designed constant directivity waveguide with compression driver. What made the difference to previous setups was just and only the dedicated, oversized midrange.

Nevertheless, why is it, that scientists still work on 'holographic' solutions like those depicted in post => #324 ?

Never underestimate the advantage of capacity and better directivity that a larger midrange driver can give.

And then we have all those weird set-ups that are supposed to fix the flawed stereo system. It is not necessary. All you need is 2 speakers. With just 2 speakers, sound can be placed all around a listener, though it usually is not very good for sound coming further back than around 90 degrees.

 

[fineMen]

I can also understand that in this case you don't really enjoy or care about stereo, but please respect also many others where it works well.

You say that despite I explicitely expressed my appreciation of Your input? C'm on. Even if I touchrd a weak point here.

CU

 

[thewas]

You say that despite I explicitely expressed my appreciation of Your input? C'm on. Even if I touchrd a weak point here.

CU

Maybe it is just the language barrier as it seems most are non native English speakers.
Cheers

 

[dualazmak]

I love this track download purchased (192 kHz 24 bit FLAC), and I includes this track in my audio check sampler playlist;

If your stereo system as well as your ears and brain would be normal, all of you have nice center image with this track.

I assume, the disappearance of the SPs is not simply Yes or No, but the "degree" of disappearance would greatly depends on stereo system, fine tuning of the system, recording quality, room acoustics, hearing abilities, and so on. At least in my audio setup, I got "better" and "improved" center allocation after my perfect time alignment of SPs in 0.1 msec precision, as I wrote in my post here.

 

[Doodski]

I love this track download purchased (192 kHz 24 bit FLAC), and I includes this track in my audio check sampler playlist;

If your stereo system as well as your ears and brain would be normal, all of you have nice center image with this track.

I assume, the disappearance of the SPs is not simply Yes or No, but the "degree" of disappearance would greatly depends on stereo system, fine tuning of the system, recording quality, room acoustics, hearing abilities, and so on. At least in my audio setup, I got "better" and "improved" center allocation after my perfect time alignment of SPs in 0.1 msec precision, as I wrote in my post here.

Confirmed a center trumpet image with the piano and cymbals at the sides.

 

[fineMen]

If your stereo system as well as your ears and brain would be normal, all of you have nice center image with this track.
I assume, the disappearance of the SPs is ...

Neither is my stereo normal, nor my brain. Do I have one or none or two? I never looked it up, so how could I be sure?

Seriously, this is a typical stereophile recording. How come, that the piano sits in (!) the drum kit? Piano reaches from left to right, drum from right to left, trumpet slightly left, bass slighly right by the same margin. Bass has no air, trumpet never moves. No modulation in the "image". It is dead perfect.

I assume You listen to this as to confirm the undoubted excellence of Your stereo. I personally do not feel engaged.

Look, => Somethingelseornot

Very hard panned and echo'ed, but perculiarly nice. And, to my taste the sanctuary stereo effect supports the musical expression exceptionally well. I could even sit in my favorite chair beside without worrying about my reputation. Leaving the very critical front seat for my fluffy cat for decoration.

 

[Axo1989]

It is impressive to hear how tall Phil Collins appears on this recording.

Phil is a thoughtful British man, I expect he is up there fixing the leak.

 

[Larry B. Larabee]

This is an important thread. I hope it goes somewhere toward figuring this out.
I vote flat response from 30-300hz to bring the soundstage just behind each speaker. 85db average level just in case.

 

[Andysu]

unlike my matrix below surround with JBL speakers being using now for many years,

so above side to side back and front and below matrix surround

 

[dualazmak]

Let me share with you all just one another example of "degree of SP disappearance" in full orchestra recording together with soprano solo and chorus.

Fortunately I could find the full album on YouTube;

but, of course, I highly recommend you to listen to the original wonderful CD;
Schubert "Rosamunde (Complete)", Kurt Masur (conductor), Gewandhausorchester Leipzig, with Elly Ameling (sopraso) and Rundfunkechor Leipzig (Leipzig Radio Chorus), Philips ASIN: B00000E2SS;

As I shared before in my post here, this album was recorded in December 1983 with really amazing recording quality.

The first track "Overture" is pp to fff full orchestra sound with very nice 3D perspectives, and with my present multichannel stereo setup the sound and the disappearance of SPs are really amazing; I feel as if I am sitting on the best seat in the Neues Gewandhause Leipzig. Among the very comfortable silky but vivid and gentle orchestra sound, now I can identify each individual violinist in the full orchestra.

Elly Ameling sang only in track-5 "Romance" for just 3 min 47 sec and her posture and beloved voice were best seen and heard ever before, even though I have listened to this album more than hundred times.

The famous ppp orchestra piece of track-7 "Ent'acte to Scene 3" is always a great challenge to audio system for orchestra string sound in good S/N without distortion; I cannot find suitable words how beautifully my system played this track also...

Track-9 "Chorus of Shepherds" is another challenge to audio system for the balance of 4-part chorus and orchestra sound in the nice acoustic hall. In the middle of the track, each of the solo singer from soprano, alto, tenor and bass sing in the center-back of the stage, and we need excellent 3D perspectives and sound resolution for very much impressive listening experience. If you have excellent disappearance of L&R speakers, and hence nice 3D sound perspectives, (and if you have normal ears and brain), you may easily identify the exact standing position of each of the four solo singers on the far stage.

I believe it would be also important to "subjectively" discuss about "(relative) degree of disappearance of SPs" having proper common sampler music tracks as I share in this post and in another post #365 above.

 

[Descartes]

I noticed that some speakers just disappear and it feels like the sound appears out of thin air, and others don't feel like that at all, and the sound is just coming out of 2 speakers.
What makes speakers "disappear" and can it be measured?

Which ones?

 

[Pearljam5000]

Which ones?

Genelecs
KH120 also had this quality

 

[Holmz]

I also think that hearing a sufficient amount of direct sound and a properly set up speaker positioning that locks in the phantom center will make the speakers "disappear".

What does properly set up mean?

As we all understand, a single speaker can never disappear no matter how much reverb sound our listening room adds to the equation, already there we have "the proof" that the listening room cannot be the factor that makes our speakers do the disappearing act. We need two speakers playing together, two sound sources properly set up that will give us "a window" to the recorded room, and for that to happen we need to reduce the reverberation from our listening room and get the positioning of the speakers just right.
…

Well if the sound is exactly the same out of both speakers then the image should be in the center.
Having things like different resonances, where one speaker is then different than the other somewhere in the frequency band, could make that speaker then stand out.

…
I think we can agree, …

One would think so I suppose…

I would say, for a listener with normal hearing and brain function, the stereo panorama will be perceived, unless the two speakers screw up somehow - which is the whole point of the thread, surely. How can we identify and measure the ways speakers screw up?

I would suspect so. The room can still screw things up, but that is more of a known unknown.

 

[Axo1989]

Well if the sound is exactly the same out of both speakers then the image should be in the center.
Having things like different resonances, where one speaker is then different than the other somewhere in the frequency band, could make that speaker then stand out.

On resonances per my earlier post, they may occur in either or both speakers (depending on the signal) and locate the sound at speaker cabinet or driver. The speakers aren't (necessarily) different from each other. Also, these aren’t room resonances (which may also break the illusion) but are a different issue.

 

[goat76]

What does properly set up mean?



Well if the sound is exactly the same out of both speakers then the image should be in the center.
Having things like different resonances, where one speaker is then different than the other somewhere in the frequency band, could make that speaker then stand out.

Of course, the sound will appear in the center with two speakers playing the same sound and the listener is sitting at the sweet spot, but the phantom center will have a "washed out" sound if the distance between the speakers is too long.

To get the full stereo width with most recordings you should have the speakers positioned in an equilateral triangle with the listening position, this is the studio standard. But if this listening triangle is too large you run the risk of getting a "hole in the middle"/washed-out center image, which will result that the two speakers will be more easily heard as two separate sound sources, and therefore less likely to "disappear".

To get this right you need to find the right distance for your particular speakers where the phantom center sounds distinct, focused and not smeared out. The two speakers need to "work together" and lock the center image, almost as if a center speaker was used in the setup. When you find the right distance between the speakers and move the listening position to get the equilateral triangle, you should get both the full stereo width and at the same time a distinct center image. Everything else in the stereo field should then fall in place, and the speakers, depending on the recording, will have a better chance to disappear.

 

[Wesayso]

Quite a grim view on this subject in this thread.

I have gone trough life till about 2008 without much thought about Stereo as a concept. Yes, I had been laying between speakers on a few occasions, listening to Jimi Hendrix to see if I was "Experienced" .

But in 2008 I decided to update my car stereo as I used it daily and my head was pretty much in a fixed spot during that ride each day.
The more I worked on it, the more I started to "get" what Stereo was about. I never had heard anything that imaged as well as the car stereo did after working on it for, yes, years on end... But that made my home stereo sorely lacking in comparison.
From that point on I made it a mission to get good Stereo performance in my living room. Basically by looking at the room and speakers as one concept that should work together. Along that journey I have kept working on it and with a few small tricks, you can enhance the Stereo perception and make it even more fun.

What worked for me:
- Avoiding diffraction of the speaker itself. Nothing on the speaker should make it easier to find it. Chamfers or round-overs work to hide the speaker position. It can be measured and found if one looks at on and off axis plots. It can also be simulated...
- Avoiding or absorbing (very) early reflections... Those too can be measured and seen in the IR as peaks and reducing those reflections has quite the impact on the frequency response curves as seen in-room.
- A speaker concept that has the ability to work with the room... being pressed for space I went with full range line arrays. If I've had more room to play with I probably would have gone with horns or even Synergy speakers.
- Trickery that makes the imaging and perceiving a stage even stronger. Due to the absence of strong early reflections, the Stereo faults like cross-talk become way more obvious. I've tried many things to combat cross-talk. In present state I have 2 presets I can choose from. One is mid-side EQ and the other is software cross talk cancellation based. The first I prefer for music, together with ambience channels, the second is my favorite for movies (no center channel is present so it's all phantom center).
- Ambience channels to make up for the energy I stole from the room. These ambient speakers help hide the effects of cross talk. They also make the room a better acoustic environment and provide envelopment. At no point should they attract attention to themselves, they are there to perceive a stronger Stereo illusion. Not meant as Surround effect. A little reverb is used to make a small room sound a little larger. Basically it is a Haas kicker, but done actively instead of passively.
With the above list the Stereo illusion has become much stronger and more vivid, holographic even. I've played with it extensively to enhance the effects present in Stereo with minimum brain effort. The speakers do disappear into a sound field created by the recording. It can be huge, wide and deep if it is recorded that way but also small and intimate if the recording asks for that.

Some may say this isn't HiFi. I'll simply agree to that and call it MyFi. I aim to please myself, but so far it has worked for all others that visited me.
It is largely entertaining and quite educational and I'll continue to come up with new experiments to enhance it even further if possible.
I took queues from Toole and the rest of the crew at Harman, but also listened to most every other view to see if I could find common ground.
During my car audio days I had found an excellent teacher in a fellow that named himself "werewolf" and at later date "Lycan" on DIYmobileaudio.com. The ideas for ambience started with his posts on this subject. Incidentally he also wrote a great thread on infinite line array theory. A lot of inspiration for my ambience mix came from David Griesinger and his countless papers on perception of rooms and spaces.

All in good fun. Why did I go to such lengths to enhance Stereo perception? Because all of the music I love and hold close to my heart is locked inside that concept. It is the soundtrack of my life that I love and enjoy. Plus it has become a fun fascination/hobby. Educational and rewarding.

 

[gnarly]

Nevertheless, why is it, that scientists still work on 'holographic' solutions like those depicted in post => #324 ?

Theatre, theme parks, certain type live sound shows, and productions like Cirque du Soleil for example....
Where real money can work for real rewards by increasing audience enjoyment/experience.

If you get a chance to go to a major ProAV event like Infocomm, there will no doubt be a number of 'immersive sound' demonstrations.
It's quite impressive to hear a singer move through the audience, and from your seat sound like her voice is coming from wherever she stands.....even when right on top of you..........and know folks in other seats are hearing the same phenomenon from their seats at the same time.

Meyer's Spacemap, Alcon and others licensing Astral Spatial,...not to mention more "ordinary" array steering like Martins' MLA, and EAW's Anya ........well, all i can say is ..... proaudio science and more importantly sound, makes the home audio industry seem downright stuck in the mud.

 

[gnarly]

I actually have had a single speaker "disappear" ! I built a very large conical horn that went down to 400Hz.

I've had the same experience with large conicals, 48" wide, that hold horizontal pattern control down to about 200Hz.
I keep it where i can listen to them in stereo, or singly in mono, for tuning experiments.
Occasionally i get fooled as to which one is playing when in single mono mode.

 

[gnarly]

What worked for me:
- Avoiding diffraction of the speaker itself. Nothing on the speaker should make it easier to find it. Chamfers or round-overs work to hide the speaker position. It can be measured and found if one looks at on and off axis plots. It can also be simulated...
- Avoiding or absorbing (very) early reflections... Those too can be measured and seen in the IR as peaks and reducing those reflections has quite the impact on the frequency response curves as seen in-room.
- A speaker concept that has the ability to work with the room... being pressed for space I went with full range line arrays. If I've had more room to play with I probably would have gone with horns or even Synergy speakers.
- Trickery that makes the imaging and perceiving a stage even stronger. Due to the absence of strong early reflections, the Stereo faults like cross-talk become way more obvious. I've tried many things to combat cross-talk. In present state I have 2 presets I can choose from. One is mid-side EQ and the other is software cross talk cancellation based. The first I prefer for music, together with ambience channels, the second is my favorite for movies (no center channel is present so it's all phantom center).
- Ambience channels to make up for the energy I stole from the room. These ambient speakers help hide the effects of cross talk. They also make the room a better acoustic environment and provide envelopment. At no point should they attract attention to themselves, they are there to perceive a stronger Stereo illusion. Not meant as Surround effect. A little reverb is used to make a small room sound a little larger. Basically it is a Haas kicker, but done actively instead of passively.
With the above list the Stereo illusion has become much stronger and more vivid, holographic even. I've played with it extensively to enhance the effects present in Stereo with minimum brain effort. The speakers do disappear into a sound field created by the recording. It can be huge, wide and deep if it is recorded that way but also small and intimate if the recording asks for that.

Some may say this isn't HiFi. I'll simply agree to that and call it MyFi. I aim to please myself, but so far it has worked for all others that visited me.

Nice post Wesayso,
i think the items you mentioned that worked for you all make sense.
And i completely agree with your concept of "MyFi"

 

[Holmz]

Of course, the sound will appear in the center with two speakers playing the same sound and the listener is sitting at the sweet spot, but the phantom center will have a "washed out" sound if the distance between the speakers is too long.
….

Is there a link which talk about that?