What kind of AVR to pair with Dali Opticons MK2 (4 Ohms)?

[Dulcow]

Hi there,

I'm reading here for a while but this would be my first post ;-)

I'm currently running a Cambridge EVO 150 with 2x Dali Opticons MK2 and 1x SVS SB-1000 Pro subwoofer. It works quite well for HiFi content (Roon / Qobuz and some CDs) and I'm very pleased with this system.

I will be moving soon to a new house and I would like to dedicate part of my living room to Home Theater. I would love to keep the Dali's and build around them (Opticon Vokal MK2 for central, Opticon 1 MK2 or LCRs for surround, Alteco C-1 for Atmos). I also might add another subwoofer (same one).

The AVR is a big question mark right now : NAD 778 / Anthem MRX 740 8K / Denon X4800H. What would you choose?

NAD has a native Roon Ready implementation and Class D amplifier which is likely to be at ease with the speakers. Amir's review and conclusion weren't enthusiastic about the overall performance of this AVR.

In their reviews, Audioholics (https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/anthem-mrx-740-1140-receivers) mention 6+ Ohms speakers for the Anthem AVRs. I'm wondering if this is going to be a problem. The part of the room where I will be locating all of this isn't that big (20sqm).

Denon seems to offer a decent AVR but the room correction looks subpar with the other two (partial Dirac Live for NAD, ARC for Anthem).

Roon is another concern of mine as Anthem hasn't released yet any firmware with Roon Ready certification. It means I would need to go the RPi route with a coaxial output and RoPieee for the time being.

Another question is about the Cambridge EVO: should I keep it or simply it resell it to keep it "one box to do it all" kind of approach? Are recent AVRs decent enough for HiFi content?

Cheers,

D.

 

[peng]

Hi there,

I'm reading here for a while but this would be my first post ;-)

I'm currently running a Cambridge EVO 150 with 2x Dali Opticons MK2 and 1x SVS SB-1000 Pro subwoofer. It works quite well for HiFi content (Roon / Qobuz and some CDs) and I'm very pleased with this system.

I will be moving soon to a new house and I would like to dedicate part of my living room to Home Theater. I would love to keep the Dali's and build around them (Opticon Vokal MK2 for central, Opticon 1 MK2 or LCRs for surround, Alteco C-1 for Atmos). I also might add another subwoofer (same one).

The AVR is a big question mark right now : NAD 778 / Anthem MRX 740 8K / Denon X4800H. What would you choose?

NAD has a native Roon Ready implementation and Class D amplifier which is likely to be at ease with the speakers. Amir's review and conclusion weren't enthusiastic about the overall performance of this AVR.

In their reviews, Audioholics (https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/anthem-mrx-740-1140-receivers) mention 6+ Ohms speakers for the Anthem AVRs. I'm wondering if this is going to be a problem. The part of the room where I will be locating all of this isn't that big (20sqm).

Denon seems to offer a decent AVR but the room correction looks subpar with the other two (partial Dirac Live for NAD, ARC for Anthem).

Roon is another concern of mine as Anthem hasn't released yet any firmware with Roon Ready certification. It means I would need to go the RPi route with a coaxial output and RoPieee for the time being.

Another question is about the Cambridge EVO: should I keep it or simply it resell it to keep it "one box to do it all" kind of approach? Are recent AVRs decent enough for HiFi content?

Cheers,

D.

Of the 3 AVRs you listed, the Denon would be my choice based on:

- Room correction should make more audible difference than the other factors such as better bench test measurements.
- The NAD has DL, but poorer measurements, especially the power amp section performance, no 8K, no preamp mode.
- The NAD has only two sub outs and may not be independent (manual doesn't say anything about that so you should double check that with NAD).
- The MRX740 has the best measurements based on Audioholics.com's, but likely no audible benefits as all 3's are below the threshold of audibility, also limited to 2 subouts that are not independent.

Even if you don't want to pay for the DL license price adder, Denon's Audyssey XT32 Sub EQ HT with the $20 app are better (in my experience) in integrating the mains and subs to deliver much smoother bass in the deep bass region than Anthem's, ymmv... Yes, forum hearsay will have you believe ARCG is great but there are no objective evidence, only subjective ones that does not mean much. With Audyssey and Dirac's, you can find tons of objective user feed back, supported by their actual in-room measurements graphs. ARCG can do very well too if you take your own measurements and are willing to tweak, otherwise you can rely on Placebo and expectation bias derived from forum talks, youtubers and professional reviewers.

About the EVO 150, any of the 3 AVRs should be "decent enough" for hifi content unless you really can hear the difference between 0.005% and 0.001% THD, I highly doubt that...

Strictly on specs based on the DAC chip (ES9018K2M) itself, yes the EVO 150 is the best among all 3, but we don't know if the DAC chip is the bottom neck anyway because there are no information on the important volume control and opamp chips. If it was me, I would try to get a good trade in price to get rid of the EVO and just to feel better, just grab a $200-$300 desktop DAC that uses the ES9038 Pro that is far superior. In that case, the Denon has the advantage because you can use direct mode to bypass the internal ADC/DAC, that is not possible with the Anthem.

Almost forgot, if you have the Opticon's tower versions, such as the 6 or 8, assuming your seating distance is 10-12 ft and listen to ref level or even 5 dB below reference, you should get an external amp that is truly rated for 200-300 W into 4 ohms. AVR's so call 4 ohm capability is based on using the impedance settings that are designed to limit voltage/current so while they can do the job, you may not be happy about the sound quality, depending on your listening habit and distance.

 

[MLaranjeiras]

Of the 3 AVRs you listed, the Denon would be my choice based on:

- Room correction should make more audible difference than the other factors such as better bench test measurements.
- The NAD has DL, but poorer measurements, especially the power amp section performance, no 8K, no preamp mode.
- The NAD has only two sub outs and may not be independent (manual doesn't say anything about that so you should double check that with NAD).
- The MRX740 has the best measurements based on Audioholics.com's, but likely no audible benefits as all 3's are below the threshold of audibility, also limited to 2 subouts that are not independent.

Even if you don't want to pay for the DL license price adder, Denon's Audyssey XT32 Sub EQ HT with the $20 app are better (in my experience) in integrating the mains and subs to deliver much smoother bass in the deep bass region than Anthem's, ymmv... Yes, forum hearsay will have you believe ARCG is great but there are no objective evidence, only subjective ones that does not mean much. With Audyssey and Dirac's, you can find tons of objective user feed back, supported by their actual in-room measurements graphs. ARCG can do very well too if you take your own measurements and are willing to tweak, otherwise you can rely on Placebo and expectation bias derived from forum talks, youtubers and professional reviewers.

About the EVO 150, any of the 3 AVRs should be "decent enough" for hifi content unless you really can hear the difference between 0.005% and 0.001% THD, I highly doubt that...

Strictly on specs based on the DAC chip (ES9018K2M) itself, yes the EVO 150 is the best among all 3, but we don't know if the DAC chip is the bottom neck anyway because there are no information on the important volume control and opamp chips. If it was me, I would try to get a good trade in price to get rid of the EVO and just to feel better, just grab a $200-$300 desktop DAC that uses the ES9038 Pro that is far superior. In that case, the Denon has the advantage because you can use direct mode to bypass the internal ADC/DAC, that is not possible with the Anthem.

Almost forgot, if you have the Opticon's tower versions, such as the 6 or 8, assuming your seating distance is 10-12 ft and listen to ref level or even 5 dB below reference, you should get an external amp that is truly rated for 200-300 W into 4 ohms. AVR's so call 4 ohm capability is based on using the impedance settings that are designed to limit voltage/current so while they can do the job, you may not be happy about the sound quality, depending on your listening habit and distance.

Hi there,

I'm reading here for a while but this would be my first post ;-)

I'm currently running a Cambridge EVO 150 with 2x Dali Opticons MK2 and 1x SVS SB-1000 Pro subwoofer. It works quite well for HiFi content (Roon / Qobuz and some CDs) and I'm very pleased with this system.

I will be moving soon to a new house and I would like to dedicate part of my living room to Home Theater. I would love to keep the Dali's and build around them (Opticon Vokal MK2 for central, Opticon 1 MK2 or LCRs for surround, Alteco C-1 for Atmos). I also might add another subwoofer (same one).

The AVR is a big question mark right now : NAD 778 / Anthem MRX 740 8K / Denon X4800H. What would you choose?

NAD has a native Roon Ready implementation and Class D amplifier which is likely to be at ease with the speakers. Amir's review and conclusion weren't enthusiastic about the overall performance of this AVR.

In their reviews, Audioholics (https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/anthem-mrx-740-1140-receivers) mention 6+ Ohms speakers for the Anthem AVRs. I'm wondering if this is going to be a problem. The part of the room where I will be locating all of this isn't that big (20sqm).

Denon seems to offer a decent AVR but the room correction looks subpar with the other two (partial Dirac Live for NAD, ARC for Anthem).

Roon is another concern of mine as Anthem hasn't released yet any firmware with Roon Ready certification. It means I would need to go the RPi route with a coaxial output and RoPieee for the time being.

Another question is about the Cambridge EVO: should I keep it or simply it resell it to keep it "one box to do it all" kind of approach? Are recent AVRs decent enough for HiFi content?

Cheers,

D.

You can buy the Denon, use its pre-out to listen music on the EVO and compare. I have a Pioneer VSX LX 503 AV Receiver and a vintage Sansui AU-X911DG, that sounds much better for stereo than the Pioneer . I mean that with this level os speakers, you could consider a good dedicated power ou integrated amplifier with the money saved selling your EVO 150, that might be redudant after you buy the Denon.

 

[Dulcow]

Of the 3 AVRs you listed, the Denon would be my choice based on:

- Room correction should make more audible difference than the other factors such as better bench test measurements.
- The NAD has DL, but poorer measurements, especially the power amp section performance, no 8K, no preamp mode.
- The NAD has only two sub outs and may not be independent (manual doesn't say anything about that so you should double check that with NAD).
- The MRX740 has the best measurements based on Audioholics.com's, but likely no audible benefits as all 3's are below the threshold of audibility, also limited to 2 subouts that are not independent.

Even if you don't want to pay for the DL license price adder, Denon's Audyssey XT32 Sub EQ HT with the $20 app are better (in my experience) in integrating the mains and subs to deliver much smoother bass in the deep bass region than Anthem's, ymmv... Yes, forum hearsay will have you believe ARCG is great but there are no objective evidence, only subjective ones that does not mean much. With Audyssey and Dirac's, you can find tons of objective user feed back, supported by their actual in-room measurements graphs. ARCG can do very well too if you take your own measurements and are willing to tweak, otherwise you can rely on Placebo and expectation bias derived from forum talks, youtubers and professional reviewers.

About the EVO 150, any of the 3 AVRs should be "decent enough" for hifi content unless you really can hear the difference between 0.005% and 0.001% THD, I highly doubt that...

Strictly on specs based on the DAC chip (ES9018K2M) itself, yes the EVO 150 is the best among all 3, but we don't know if the DAC chip is the bottom neck anyway because there are no information on the important volume control and opamp chips. If it was me, I would try to get a good trade in price to get rid of the EVO and just to feel better, just grab a $200-$300 desktop DAC that uses the ES9038 Pro that is far superior. In that case, the Denon has the advantage because you can use direct mode to bypass the internal ADC/DAC, that is not possible with the Anthem.

Almost forgot, if you have the Opticon's tower versions, such as the 6 or 8, assuming your seating distance is 10-12 ft and listen to ref level or even 5 dB below reference, you should get an external amp that is truly rated for 200-300 W into 4 ohms. AVR's so call 4 ohm capability is based on using the impedance settings that are designed to limit voltage/current so while they can do the job, you may not be happy about the sound quality, depending on your listening habit and distance.

Thanks for this detailed answer. I happen to have a RPi with the Audiophonics ES9038Q2M HAT board in my office (on my old Crescendo amplifier and Dali Ikon 6 MK2). I should compare it to the one from the EVO 150 to see if I "can" hear some differences.

The EVO 150 is supposed to deliver 250W at 4 Ohms... I never go above 50% right now, most of the time between 20 and 30. I must be in the quiet listeners gang ;-)

You can buy the Denon, use its pre-out to listen music on the EVO and compare. I have a Pioneer VSX LX 503 AV Receiver and a vintage Sansui AU-X911DG, that sounds much better for stereo than the Pioneer . I mean that with this level os speakers, you could consider a good dedicated power ou integrated amplifier with the money saved selling your EVO 150, that might be redudant after you buy the Denon.

What kind of integrated amplifier would you recommend? The EVO 150 is just stereo in the end, I'm not sure to see how it is redundant to a Denon X4800H. It could be overkill in addition to the Denon AVR, that's probably true ;-)

Should I use an external Roon Ready DAC and the Denon as a simple power amplifier then? Not sure how to leverage the subwoofers in such configuration.

 

[MLaranjeiras]

Of the 3 AVRs you listed, the Denon would be my choice based on:

- Room correction should make more audible difference than the other factors such as better bench test measurements.
- The NAD has DL, but poorer measurements, especially the power amp section performance, no 8K, no preamp mode.
- The NAD has only two sub outs and may not be independent (manual doesn't say anything about that so you should double check that with NAD).
- The MRX740 has the best measurements based on Audioholics.com's, but likely no audible benefits as all 3's are below the threshold of audibility, also limited to 2 subouts that are not independent.

Even if you don't want to pay for the DL license price adder, Denon's Audyssey XT32 Sub EQ HT with the $20 app are better (in my experience) in integrating the mains and subs to deliver much smoother bass in the deep bass region than Anthem's, ymmv... Yes, forum hearsay will have you believe ARCG is great but there are no objective evidence, only subjective ones that does not mean much. With Audyssey and Dirac's, you can find tons of objective user feed back, supported by their actual in-room measurements graphs. ARCG can do very well too if you take your own measurements and are willing to tweak, otherwise you can rely on Placebo and expectation bias derived from forum talks, youtubers and professional reviewers.

About the EVO 150, any of the 3 AVRs should be "decent enough" for hifi content unless you really can hear the difference between 0.005% and 0.001% THD, I highly doubt that...

Strictly on specs based on the DAC chip (ES9018K2M) itself, yes the EVO 150 is the best among all 3, but we don't know if the DAC chip is the bottom neck anyway because there are no information on the important volume control and opamp chips. If it was me, I would try to get a good trade in price to get rid of the EVO and just to feel better, just grab a $200-$300 desktop DAC that uses the ES9038 Pro that is far superior. In that case, the Denon has the advantage because you can use direct mode to bypass the internal ADC/DAC, that is not possible with the Anthem.

Almost forgot, if you have the Opticon's tower versions, such as the 6 or 8, assuming your seating distance is 10-12 ft and listen to ref level or even 5 dB below reference, you should get an external amp that is truly rated for 200-300 W into 4 ohms. AVR's so call 4 ohm capability is based on using the impedance settings that are designed to limit voltage/current so while they can do the job, you may not be happy about the sound quality, depending on your listening habit and distance.

Probably I will need to move from Pioneer to Denon AV Receiver, due the weak real continue power delivered by the Pioneer for a 25m² room, in a future. For now, in a small room and at low volume, it is great for the price. I have great hopes that an AV receiver might be good both for stereo and multichannel, but my experiencie tells me something diferent. Of course a Denon can have a better audio quality over the Pioneer, but I decided a long time ago to move to a dedicated amplifier for stereo. Even being minimalist and reading about NAD T778, its limitations of conexions, issues and its high price tag made me hesitate. For sure, a vintage gear without that complex and sensible PCBs are a safe place for my money and ears. Who knows in the future I move to a Naim Supernait 3 or so. For now, I am very satisfied.

 

[ban25]

The Denon X4800H is easily the best option out of what you've listed. Another option if you are particularly interested in buying something that's Roon Ready is the Integra DRX-8.4, Pioneer VSX-LX805, or Onkyo TX-RZ70. These units will receive a firmware update to add Roon Ready support in June.

 

[Dulcow]

The Denon X4800H is easily the best option out of what you've listed. Another option if you are particularly interested in buying something that's Roon Ready is the Integra DRX-8.4, Pioneer VSX-LX805, or Onkyo TX-RZ70. These units will receive a firmware update to add Roon Ready support in June.

The 3 references you shared are going to be over budget for me I guess but it is definitely interesting.

@peng One limitation I understood recently is that in "Pure Direct" via an input on the AVR, you can only get the front speakers to work and not the subwoofer. This would suck a bit if I was to use an external Roon Ready DAC onto the AVR.

I'm tempted to keep the EVO 150 for now for HiFi listening and to go with a cheap/not so powerful AVR for the the rest of the speakers (using pre-outs front on the AVR + HT bypass on the EVO for the front ones). There are a bunch of second hand X2700H / X3700H / X2800H / X3800H for sale in France at the moment, it might be a good enough start for me. It would allow me to go to 5.1.2 (Dolby Atmos and DTS:X) while not having to power the mains with the AVR as I would use the EVO as a power amp with HT bypass.

From this post, it looks I can use two inputs on one subwoofer (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/share-svs-subwoofer-with-avr-and-stereo-amp-denon-yamaha.3206538/) meaning I could use both AVR and EVO on my SVS SB-1000 Pro. I'm not too sure how to set it up so I don't have constantly to switch profile while listening/watching movies: one settings with LFE disabled and low pass filter set for HiFi, another one with LFE enabled for the AVR.

 

[peng]

The 3 references you shared are going to be over budget for me I guess but it is definitely interesting.

@peng One limitation I understood recently is that in "Pure Direct" via an input on the AVR, you can only get the front speakers to work and not the subwoofer. This would suck a bit if I was to use an external Roon Ready DAC onto the AVR.

I'm tempted to keep the EVO 150 for now for HiFi listening and to go with a cheap/not so powerful AVR for the the rest of the speakers (using pre-outs front on the AVR + HT bypass on the EVO for the front ones). There are a bunch of second hand X2700H / X3700H / X2800H / X3800H for sale in France at the moment, it might be a good enough start for me. It would allow me to go to 5.1.2 (Dolby Atmos and DTS:X) while not having to power the mains with the AVR as I would use the EVO as a power amp with HT bypass.

From this post, it looks I can use two inputs on one subwoofer (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/share-svs-subwoofer-with-avr-and-stereo-amp-denon-yamaha.3206538/) meaning I could use both AVR and EVO on my SVS SB-1000 Pro. I'm not too sure how to set it up so I don't have constantly to switch profile while listening/watching movies: one settings with LFE disabled and low pass filter set for HiFi, another one with LFE enabled for the AVR.

For Denon and Marantz, the sub can be on in direct mode and pure direct mode (if I remember correctly) if you set it up that way in the 2 channel stereo manual.
Edit: The AVR-X4800H does not seem to have the 2ch playback menu (found in the X4700H) any more but it does look like you can still have output from the subwoofer outputs if you read page 305 of the owner's manual.

 

[AdamG]

For Denon and Marantz, the sub can be on in direct mode and pure direct mode (if I remember correctly) if you set it up that way in the 2 channel stereo manual.

Yes, in 2ch mode you can set the subs up with different crossovers and distance time than you would use globally for Movies/tv. It’s a very nice feature good memory recall.

 

[Dulcow]

For Denon and Marantz, the sub can be on in direct mode and pure direct mode (if I remember correctly) if you set it up that way in the 2 channel stereo manual.

That's brilliant. I will dig into this ;-)

 

[peng]

That's brilliant. I will dig into this ;-)

Actually I just did a little more digging and found that there is a difference between the previous model and the AVR-X4800H. The AVR-X4800H does not have the 2ch playback menu any more, but it still looks like the subwoofer can be on.

See page 305:

 

[Dulcow]

Actually I just did a little more digging and found that there is a difference between the previous model and the AVR-X4800H. The AVR-X4800H does not have the 2ch playback menu any more, but it still looks like the subwoofer can be on.

See page 305:

View attachment 278382

View attachment 278384

It doesn't look "simple" I have to say ;-) Thanks for the nudge.

 

[AdamG]

Actually I just did a little more digging and found that there is a difference between the previous model and the AVR-X4800H. The AVR-X4800H does not have the 2ch playback menu any more, but it still looks like the subwoofer can be on.

See page 305:

View attachment 278382

View attachment 278384

I missed that. Did not know that this model didn’t have 2ch Playback mode. However, the Audyssey calibration system allows 2 separate Playback modes. In theory he should be able to do two separate calibrations. One for Home Theater with all connected channels and then another for 2.1 or 2.2 or 2.0 playback. From what I understand then he can one click Calibration setup select and simulate the 2ch playback function. He can choose to disengage dynamic EQ and any further Audyssey Eq processing. Post calibration he can go into the calibration results and change crossover and distance timing settings saved for the 2nd Audyssey Calibration Configuration. Do I have any of this misunderstood?

 

[Dulcow]

@peng Do you know previous which had that functionality? It looks like the X2700/X3700H had it from what I can read in the user manual.

 

[peng]

I missed that. Did not know that this model didn’t have 2ch Playback mode. However, the Audyssey calibration system allows 2 separate Playback modes. In theory he should be able to do two separate calibrations. One for Home Theater with all connected channels and then another for 2.1 or 2.2 or 2.0 playback. From what I understand then he can one click Calibration setup select and simulate the 2ch playback function. He can choose to disengage dynamic EQ and any further Audyssey Eq processing. Post calibration he can go into the calibration results and change crossover and distance timing settings saved for the 2nd Audyssey Calibration Configuration. Do I have any of this misunderstood?

I would think so, but the OP seems to want to stick with direct/pure direct mode without Audyssey messing around. He should still be able to do it regardless of the previously available 2ch stereo menu setting, just have to select LFE+Main whenever he wants to listen that way, and I suspect with LFE+Main selected, bass management (crossover) may still work though I am not really sure as I don't have a X3800/4800H, hopefully someone who does, can check that out for the OP. I suspect it might work because iirc, my X4400H did work that way.

 

[peng]

@peng Do you know previous which had that functionality? It looks like the X2700/X3700H had it from what I can read in the user manual.

If you meant "previous" to the X2700/3700H, yes, my X4400H has the 2ch stereo setting.
I happen to have the X4300H manual so I just checked, and it has the same function too: